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   PoliticsThe Trump Presidency


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To: i-node who wrote (215655)10/26/2021 8:35:21 AM
From: Brumar89
1 Recommendation   of 247173
 
Trump did have a role in the campaign violations.

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To: combjelly who wrote (215630)10/26/2021 8:37:53 AM
From: Lane3
2 Recommendations   of 247173
 
But he sincerely believes there is evidence...

I found your comment memorable and even profound because it struck me as a milestone. My observation may be universal or it may be unique to me but I see milestones in the evolution to a post-truth world.

The first milestone to hit me was Kellyanne and her "alternative facts." That notion hung a label on a huge departure from the established definition of "fact.".

Prior to that there existed the notion that everyone was entitled to his own opinion but not to his own facts. Somehow during that time there evolved the notion that one person's opinion was just as valid as anyone else's opinion regardless of the knowledge and the logic behind those opinions. Embedded in Kellyanne's notion was a conversion of opinion into fact. Opinions that were contrary to facts somehow became facts, alternative ones.

Your comment struck me as the next milestone because it gave credibility to alternative facts on the basis of sincere belief. The sincere belief thing had been understood to apply to matters of conscience--conscientious objectors. It is foundational that we respect that. Your comment applied the sincere belief standard to alternative facts. Which implies that we have to apply the same respect and recognition to alternate facts sincerely believed as we do to evidenced facts. I don't think we have quite reached that point yet but it seems to be where we're headed.

The phases, in sequence:

Facts and opinions, different concepts, validity judged rationally
Next, all opinions recognized as equally valid
Next, opinions recognized alternative facts
Next, alternative facts acquire the status and weight of facts via conscientious objection

It's too early in the morning to take even a first cut at this. Further mulling required. But I wanted to acknowledge your contribution of identifying and labeling a landmark on the post-truth road. <g>

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To: i-node who wrote (215657)10/26/2021 9:17:57 AM
From: Lane3
   of 247173
 
If you think WS, where all this horseshit began, is not important

Never said that. Only that it was not relevant to the topic on the table at that moment.

There are lots of elements to the steal thing. The one on the table was evidence that Hemingway or anyone else might to demonstrate that the D's "used covid to rig" the election. What you posted about Wisconsin had to do with voter registration rolls and excuses for voting by mail. Two different elements.

I don't know if you really have that disorganized a mind or whether you were intentionally using Wisconsin as a diversion to avoid digging into your Hemingway book and finding what evidence she had for her charge. Either way, I didn't fall for it.

I offered you an easy opportunity to display the evidence and prove your case. Are you going to check the Hemingway book for the basis for her charge? Or did you already look and find that she had none?

BTW, as a courtesy, I did comment separately on the Wisconsin thing after you called my attention to it. You ignored it. Guess it wasn't so important after all.

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To: Brumar89 who wrote (215660)10/26/2021 11:11:51 AM
From: i-node
   of 247173
 
>> Trump did have a role in the campaign violations.

It isn't clear to me either of them broke any campaign finance law. John Edwards fought a similar charge and was acquitted.

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To: i-node who wrote (215663)10/26/2021 11:52:57 AM
From: Brumar89
3 Recommendations   of 247173
 
If Cohen broke a law, then Trump, who asked him to do it, did as well. As to your belief there was no law violation at all, he DID serve time for it.

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To: combjelly who wrote (215630)10/26/2021 12:01:38 PM
From: Brumar89
4 Recommendations   of 247173
 
My own opinion is Trump, in h is heart of hearts, knows damn well he lost the election and so does inode and Mollie Hemingway. They simply have no character and have decided to embrace lies as a political tactic. There are people who sincerely believe the Big Lie, but they're really low IQ types.

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To: Bill who wrote (215658)10/26/2021 12:03:58 PM
From: Brumar89
4 Recommendations   of 247173
 
Why does twitter have a duty to publicize political claims? Free press means free press.

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To: Brumar89 who wrote (215666)10/26/2021 12:16:39 PM
From: Bill
   of 247173
 
You seem to think the legacy media would have a duty to publicize political gossip about Trump's lovelife, right? You think it's a campaign issue. Well, Twitter blocked a legitimate campaign issue. Maybe they should be prosecuted.

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To: Lane3 who wrote (215662)10/26/2021 12:43:36 PM
From: i-node
   of 247173
 
>> The one on the table was evidence that Hemingway or anyone else might to demonstrate that the D's "used covid to rig" the election.

The proof of that is easy. They admitted it.

Rahm Emanuel, in a WaPo opinion piece, made it clear: "Let's Make Sure This Crisis Doesn't Go to Waste" (March 25, 2020). A Democrat party leader makes it clear the race to corrupt the process is on.

Wisconsin (and Dewine's cancellation in Ohio) provided the basic realization that Covid would be the way forward for stealing (or "rigging" if you like that better) the election.

Wisconsin's Evers said, "Having as many absentee ballots as possible is absolutely top priority" (which Jimmy Carter himself declared the greatest threat to our election integrity only about four or five presidential elections ago); nothing had changed. This took a pretty unimportant election in Wisconsin and made it the model that established the outer limits for what they could get away with during COVID. And demonstrated the intent to steal the elections.

From there the entire election process snowballed. An academic organization that tracked the litigation found more than FIVE HUNDRED cases over the ensuing months. You had the teachers unions and AFL-CIO, the SEIU, everybody who was anybody getting in the act to demand expansion of high-risk mail-in balloting and to permit vote counting to extend well past Election Day.

They lied. They claimed Wisconsin was going to become a "super spreader" with absolutely no evidence to that effect. Carville said [Republicans] would kill people to stay in power. Of course, there was no such superspreader event, but I don't think the media ever reported on those numbers. Did you hear it?

It is pretty hard to make a cogent argument that COVID wasn't used to rig the election. It was the predicate for essentially all of the manipulations to established procedures, for Zuckerberg's private funding of election operations with string attached, for the move to mail-in and absentee balances inappropriately, the lies to voters about claiming they were confined to be able to vote absentee, all of it.

What there wasn't is a document that said, "We're going to break the law to steal this election" -- which apparently is the only evidence you'll accept on which to base an accusation against Democrats.

Meanwhile, you require the weakest cases of hearsay to claim Trump is evil, even if the hearsay has long been disproved.
Honesty, from Democrats, is gone. Very disappointing to see it happen in you, but it is a sort of disease. AFAIK there is no cure, no treatment.

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From: Ron10/26/2021 12:45:20 PM
1 Recommendation   of 247173
 
After crying fraud, Republicans go silent when Nevada ally is charged with voting twice

Days after the November 2020 election, Kirk Hartle appeared on Las Vegas television, his brow furrowed and voice tinged with disbelief.
Someone, he said, had intercepted the ballot mailed to his wife, Rosemarie, and cast it in her stead. Rosemarie Hartle died of breast cancer in 2017.
"That is pretty sickening to me, to be honest with you," Hartle told KLAS-TV.
For President Trump, his campaign surrogates and their champions in the conservative media, it was an outrage and, they claimed, a mere hint of the widespread fraud that cost Trump not just Nevada's six precious electoral votes
Last week, the state's Democratic attorney general, working with Nevada's Republican secretary of state, announced that investigators had cracked the case. Hartle, 55, was charged with two counts of fraud: voting more than once in the same election and voting using another person's name. He allegedly forged his late wife's signature to cast the ballot she'd been sent.
He is a registered Republican and the chief financial officer of Ahern Rentals, a heavy-equipment leasing firm in Las Vegas whose owner, Don Ahern, is a prominent Trump supporter.

latimes.com

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