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   PoliticsFormerly About Applied Materials


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To: Rainy_Day_Woman who wrote (70934)10/26/2003 12:58:32 PM
From: Lazarus_Long
   of 70976
 
if you were a female in the middle east and your family beat you if you told them you were raped, would you tell them, much less report it?
Not unless you're raving mad. Or cannot avoid it, like a male relative saw it and is out for revenge.

nor would I personally believe any rape statistics put out by ME governments - they have a history of major denial in regards to how their women are treated there, of how it appears to the world
What? You don't believe the Saudis when they tell us how happy their women are to to be locked away?

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To: zonder who wrote (70926)10/26/2003 1:05:07 PM
From: Lazarus_Long
   of 70976
 
You mean like this?
Message 19430432

As I said, I've been to Tunisia and Saudi. I'd rather be shot than a Saudi woman.

If this is such an abberation, why is it that so many other other ME nations seem to want to turn into Islamic theocracies?
Remember ALgeria? An Islamic fundamentalist gov't elected and the military intervenes to prevent it from taking power? Afghanistan? (Yeah, I know it's not ME; it is Muslim.) Egypt has a running, nonstop war with Islamic fundamentalists. Turkey is threatened. One of the dangers with Iraq is that if the US pulls out, an "Islamic democracy" is exactly what we will get. Iran?

Gee, there sure seem to be a lot of countries there that want to turn into repressive, female-abusing theocracies.

Know something? In spite of all the **** you throw at the US, it remains a democracy and one that treats its female half well. And I like that way. I'll take a wife, not a slave.

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To: average joe who wrote (70914)10/26/2003 1:13:53 PM
From: Lazarus_Long
   of 70976
 
"Violence in the name of culture will not be tolerated. Murder in the name of honour will be punished by the severest penalties available in law."
Amen.

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To: Rainy_Day_Woman who wrote (70933)10/26/2003 2:09:36 PM
From: Solon
   of 70976
 
Thank you. I've bookmarked it!

I might visit some people in milwaukee next summer. Chicago would be a nice drive...

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To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (70937)10/26/2003 7:35:26 PM
From: average joe
   of 70976
 
*Kurd to face murder trial over "honour killing" of daughter

UPPSALA, Sweden, March 6 (AFP) - A Kurd living in Sweden who confessed to killing his 26-year-old daughter because she was seeing a Swedish man is to go on trial next week for murder, police said Wednesday.

Rahmi Sahindal faces a maximum sentence of life in prison, Uppsala police spokeswoman Lena Larsson told AFP.

The trial is scheduled to begin on Tuesday in the Uppsala court, 70 kilometres (43 miles) north of Stockholm.

The murder of Fadime Sahindal, who was well known for campaigning against what are known as "honour crimes", has gripped Sweden.

She was shot dead just as she was leaving her sister's apartment on the evening of January 21.

Rahmi Sahindal told police the next day that he shot his daughter because she had dishonoured the family by having a romantic relationship with a Swede rather than a Kurd.

"She humiliated me in front of the whole world. I saw no other way out than to kill her. She's a whore," Swedish media quoted Rahmi Sahindal as allegedly telling police.

Fadime brought a highly publicized court case against her father and brother in 1998 for threatening to kill her for her relationship with her Swedish boyfriend.

She travelled around the country to speak publicly about her situation and lived under threat for years.

"The only way for the family to regain its honour now that I have spread dishonour over it is to kill me," Fadime, a sociology student, said during the 1998 trial.

Fadime's slaying has attracted media attention to the plight of young women immigrants in Sweden, often torn between the liberal Swedish society they grow up in and the strict, traditional upbringing their immigrant parents want to maintain.

Since her murder, debate has raged about ways to better integrate immigrants into society and protect thousands of young women in Fadime's situation from a similar fate.


mywebpage.netscape.com

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To: Solon who wrote (70897)10/26/2003 11:12:04 PM
From: Lazarus_Long
   of 70976
 
ONE TV CHANNEL???

Nah. You gotta have more than that. And something like 90% of Canadians are close to the US border, right? (I think they huddle there to stay warm.) They must get some US TV.

I remember driving around the Olympic Peninsula in WA, listening to the radio in the car. I'd say "That's a US station" My wife would say "No, that's a Canadian station." She was right. Always. I was thinking we ought to send the Washingtonians some federal aid so they could afford at least one station of their own.

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To: Sun Tzu who wrote (70927)10/27/2003 3:26:01 AM
From: zonder
   of 70976
 
Don't forget booze and football :-)

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To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (70930)10/27/2003 4:20:15 AM
From: zonder
   of 70976
 
I don't remember agreeing to anything

siliconinvestor.com

You seem to be agreeing there that it is not only some ME people who cause deaths due to their belief systems.

You seem to want to hold Europeans up as the epitome of civilization

No, I don't.

I suggest you check AJ's findings. Then see what you can find on the Amish. Then get back to us

No. I suggest I don't waste my time thus. I suggest I just point out that a couple of hundred deaths per year is not a significant number given more than a hundred million people.

>>>2) ME is in fact much safer in terms of murder and rape, than most other places, the US in particular (see the statistics website I provided in an earlier post)<<<
Repressive gov'ts repress lots of things, yes.


What?

Are you saying rape is "repressed"? Murder is "repressed"? Are you trying to say that it is a Bad Thing that ME has far less rape and murder than in the US?

ME gov't (other than possibly Israel) do you wish to hold up as the paragon of democracy?

I don't wish to hold any ME government as "paragon" of democracy. (I wouldn't show the US as "paragon" of democracy, either, especially after the appearance of the Patriot Act). Israel and Turkey are democratic countries. I would love to see you try to argue that it is because of a repressive government that rape is so low in Turkey :-)

So you see no difference between these situations:
(1) A crook is caught by police robbing your home, is arrested, tried, convicted, and does 10 years in the slammer.
(2) You grab someone you think did it and lock them up in a cage in your backyard


Oh that sounds like:
(1) Iraq violates UN resolutions, and the UN decides the proper way of dealing with it
(2) US decides to play vigilante, and invades a country they THINK has WMDs

:-)

To answer the point you were trying to make, though, no, it doesn't make it any better that it is the state killing people. Especially since the state is not foolproof, either, and that recent DNA tests have proven the innocence of some convicts already killed by the US state.

If they were serving life sentences, they could at least be set free with an apology.

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To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (70936)10/27/2003 4:39:31 AM
From: zonder
   of 70976
 
If this is such an abberation, why is it that so many other other ME nations seem to want to turn into Islamic theocracies?

Yes, honor killings are rare and happen almost exclusively in the uneducated, over-conservative, ultra-religious corners.

Your question as to why countries with Muslim majorities fight movements that intend to turn them to Islamic theocracies is unrelated to honor killings. But it is an interesting one.

I don't claim to know the ultimate answer to this, but it seems to me that religion gives the guy at the top of it a great power - there are absolute do's and don'ts and he gets to decide which is which. He can command absolute control of an ignorant population who follow him because they are religious.

This dynamic is very tempting for those seeking power, and is very often abused. I saw that trend in several places - politicians vying for power trying to tap into the religious core.

One of the dangers with Iraq is that if the US pulls out, an "Islamic democracy" is exactly what we will get

Just how you think US will ever prevent it, if that's what Iraqis want? What if they vote for a religious fundamentalist in the elections? What is the US going to do? Invade them again? Promote a coup d'etat a la Chilean?

It will be interesting to see how events unfold from here. I would be very disappointed if US lets an Islamist rule take hold of Iraq, but I don't know what they can do to prevent it, quite honestly.

Gee, there sure seem to be a lot of countries there that want to turn into repressive, female-abusing theocracies

I don't understand your point, if any.

In spite of all the **** you throw at the US

I don't throw any four-stars at the US. I don't agree with the current US administration's way of four-starring the world. If that's alright with you, I will continue to express my opinion on that. Thank you.

I'll take a wife, not a slave.

Good for you. Completely irrelevant, of course.

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To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (70936)11/4/2003 12:26:57 PM
From: E. T.
   of 70976
 
Get this... From Arab News -- "Muslims are tolerant because they believe in the three prophets - Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them) -- therefore they respect Christianity and believe in its teachings. To ban girls in hijab from education is an affront to Islam, Muslims and their beliefs."

arabnews.com

This from Saudi Arabia where children were shuffled back into a burning school to die because they were not in hijab. I'll take American freedom any day of the week, no doubt, so would have those young dead saudi students.

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