| To: average joe who wrote (70913) | 10/24/2003 9:50:03 AM | | From: Sun Tzu | | | | Did you manage to find any numbers as to how many men were also killed as part of honor killing? It takes two to tango, so I imagine given the opportunity, the man would have been as dead, no?
On somewhat related note, my personal experience in Pakistan and Northern Africa has been that despite all this "honor" talk, women were easy if they knew they can get away with it.
Oh, and I almost forgot, provocation defence is entirely dependent on the emotional background of the defendant. And I think this means a good lawyer could present a reasonable case for it even in North America:
The current defence of provocation is governed by section 232 of the Criminal Code, under the heading "Murder reduced to manslaughter." It reads as follows:
232. (1) Culpable homicide that otherwise would be murder may be reduced to manslaughter if the person who committed it did so in the heat of passion caused by sudden provocation.
(2) A wrongful act or insult that is of such a nature as to be sufficient to deprive an ordinary person of the power of self-control is provocation for the purpose of this section if the accused acted on it on the sudden and before there was time for his passion to cool.
(3) For the purposes of this section, the questions
(a) whether a particular wrongful act or insult amounted to provocation, and
(b) whether the accused was deprived of the power of self-control by the provocation that he alleges he received, are questions of fact, but no one shall be deemed to have given provocation to another by doing anything he had a legal right to do, or by doing anything that the accused incited him to do in order to provide the accused with an excuse for causing death or bodily harm to any human being.
( 4) Culpable homicide that otherwise would be murder is not necessarily manslaughter by reason only that it was committed by a person who was being arrested illegally, but the fact that the illegality of the arrest was known to the accused may be evidence of provocation for the purpose of this section.
To summarize, in order for the defence of provocation to be applied successfully, four things must be established: that there was a "wrongful act or insult"; that such an act or insult would have deprived the "ordinary person" of self-control; that the accused did in fact act "in the heat of passion" as a result of that provocation; and that the accused acted "on the sudden" and before there was time for his or her passion to cool. |
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| To: Sun Tzu who wrote (70916) | 10/24/2003 10:53:21 AM | | From: average joe | | | | "my personal experience in Pakistan and Northern Africa has been that despite all this "honor" talk, women were easy if they knew they can get away with it."
Explain what you mean by "easy" and "get away with it". |
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| To: average joe who wrote (70917) | 10/24/2003 11:21:20 AM | | From: Sun Tzu | | | | | They didn't seem to particularly give a damn how far they went with a stranger (or at least a foreign man) so long as they could maintain appearances and nobody in their community would find out. |
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| To: average joe who wrote (70915) | 10/24/2003 11:51:08 AM | | From: Lazarus_Long | | | | | Thank you. I had put "honor killing" into google, but hadn't thought of the alternate British spelling "honour killing". Obviously they also are not impressed with this as just a cute and quaint custom onserved in faraway lands that they should simply tolerate. I have no doubt similar findings would emerge using the French, German, Swedish, Spanish, .... equivalent phrases. |
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| To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (70920) | 10/24/2003 12:08:50 PM | | From: zonder | | | | Are you missing my attentions, Laz?
I believe we agreed that:
(1) Honor killings are rare. About as rare as the Amish killing their kids by not allowing them to be vaccinated against common diseases.
(2) ME is in fact much safer in terms of murder and rape, than most other places, the US in particular (see the statistics website I provided in an earlier post)
In your latest post, it seems you want to go into various other stuff, like how Europeans didn't stop killings in ex-Yugoslavia until Americans made them, etc. You seem to think that is relevant.
I am just not going to go into a comparative valuation of just which region is more horrible than the other in terms of conservative traditions/belief systems/violence etc taking lives. Suffice it to come to an understanding on the fact that ultra-conservative ways of life and religious beliefs take lives unnecessary.
It is equally horrible everywhere - whether that be Jews killing one another because they don't believe in organ donation, ultra-conservative Middle Easterns killing their own daughters because they have "shamed" the family, American state killing a criminal under "capital punishment", or the Amish killing their own kids by not allowing them to be vaccinated.
And no, this doesn't make neither the ME, the US, nor Israel a horrible place. |
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| To: average joe who wrote (70921) | 10/24/2003 12:08:56 PM | | From: Sun Tzu | | | | | Oh, and I forgot to say, it is not so harmless to the man either. In one occasion, I took a bus from one city to another. As it happens, my stop was the same as some female student who had been sitting next to me. I had only engaged in idle chit-chat to spend the time. But that was enough for the driver not to let me out at my stop and take me away for another 3 stops. On the other hand, they didn't seem to say anything to the woman. |
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