| To: Sun Tzu who wrote (70793) | 10/22/2003 12:07:57 PM | | From: Lazarus_Long | | | | But it does go to show the pressures are on both sides.
THere are lots of pressures in lots of situations in life. They hardly justify the extreme step of murder.
Are you Middle Eastern? You seem to be trying to put up a spirited defense of some rather barbarous customs.
Dig a bit deeper and you will see it is about how the society equally forces the men and women to play their rolls wether they like it or not.
Nuts. Society forces you to do nothing, not even obey its laws. You merely have to be willing to take the consequences of not doing so.
Remember Gandhi? Martin Luther King?
If it hurts so badly, don't do it. It doesn't. Not really.
Lame attempt at a personal attack.
There you go again discussing murder.
But we were discussing murder.
Message 19418201
What do YOU call that if not murder?
What of this?
Message 18835093
You want to show me where I said that?
Give me a challenge next time.
Message 19413452
The issue is purely cultural and not religious.
Solon's shown up. He's much better at this than I. I'll leave this part to him.
Given a choice between Quran and Torah
False dichotomy. If anything, the West is primarily Christian, not Jewish. |
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| To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (70875) | 10/22/2003 12:24:21 PM | | From: zonder | | | | Is honor killing different but not necessarily bad?
Killing a person, whatever the reason, is "bad" in my book.
That includes state-sanctioned killing, which I believe your country still practices at this day and age.
What I am trying to say is that judging a culture/society/nation and its way of life by a few horror stories you pick and choose.
Honor killings happen in the least educated and most conservative places of the Middle East. It is certainly not common practice everywhere. There was one such honor killing in Southeastern Turkey that I read about a few months ago, but in Turkish cities, girls and boys hold hands & kiss in the streets and nobody kills anyone.
I am trying to tell you that judging a whole culture on a couple of incidents you read in a paper does not give you a correct impression of that culture. Yes, "honor killings" are "bad". No, that doesn't make the Middle East a horrible place.
There are examples of conservative communities killing their own because of their belief systems/traditions everywhere. Amish refuse vaccinations and their kids die as a result. Now isn't that "bad"? Yes. Does that make America a horrible place? No.
Wife beating?
I hope you are not trying to say wife-beating happens only in the Middle East. |
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| To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (70878) | 10/22/2003 12:39:36 PM | | From: zonder | | | | For the record, and for what I hope will be the last time:
Mulholland Drive was insistently inquiring as to my nationality (so she could insult it, as it turns out). She said "You must be from Angola" or something. I said "Yes, sure, I am from Angola, now let's see what you'll come up with to insult Angola".
Of course she proceeded to insult Angola at every chance for the couple of days that I let this run, demonstrating full well what she would do with this little bit of personal info if ever I disclosed it.
At least she had the brains to realize after a while that I was leading her on. Not everyone was as gifted, apparently.
So for those of us who still don't get it: I am not from Angola. For crying out loud.
And get a life. It is not normal that you are so obsessed with where I am from. |
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| To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (70875) | 10/22/2003 12:58:12 PM | | From: zonder | | | | Just remembered another example of tradition/belief systems killing people:
I had a close friend in high school. She never smoked a single cigarette in her short life but was diagnosed with lung cancer in university. She needed a transplant of heart AND lungs at the same time. The trick was that the donor had to be alive as this operation was performed. And her blood type was pretty rare.
Finally, a young & famous guy had a motorcycle accident. He was technically alive, but brain dead. He had her blood type. He was the ideal candidate for her.
We tracked down his family, waited outside the hospital to talk to them. Finally we talked to his wife's brother.
They refused. Because, they said, in the Jewish religion, your body should be buried intact. No parts should be missing from it.
He died a few days later. My friend died a month after him.
Ironically, she was Jewish, too.
I stayed with her in her final months. It was not a pretty sight. Especially at night, as she tried to sleep sitting up, because breathing was next to impossible while lying down... |
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| To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (70876) | 10/22/2003 3:18:33 PM | | From: Rainy_Day_Woman | | | | If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.
-Sun Tzu |
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| To: zonder who wrote (70879) | 10/22/2003 3:32:38 PM | | From: Lazarus_Long | | | | That includes state-sanctioned killing, which I believe your country still practices at this day and age.
There are differences here, as I'm sure you're well aware. It's called "process of law". This can't be classed as revenge killing because the jury is specifically chosen from people who know neither party.
If you wish to say killing a person under any circumstances is wrong, then I presume you are a total pacifist and oppose war under any conditions? Does this include 1940, when the Nazis marched into France?
Honor killings happen in the least educated and most conservative places of the Middle East. It is certainly not common practice everywhere. There was one such honor killing in Southeastern Turkey that I read about a few months ago, but in Turkish cities, girls and boys hold hands & kiss in the streets and nobody kills anyone.
And suicide bombings carried out against civilians are ..... ? Or attempting to blow up Los Angeles International Airport? Or the World Trade Center? Or ramming jets into skyscrapers?
Amish refuse vaccinations and their kids die as a result. Now isn't that "bad"?
And Jehovah's Witnesses refuse transfusions and they and their kids die. Sometimes. Often a court overrules the parents and orders the medical procedure carried out against their wishes. There is a legitimate conflict here between freedom of religion, a strongly held value in this country, and the tenets that some religions hold.
I hope you are not trying to say wife-beating happens only in the Middle East.
Attitudes have changed over here. I suspect that may be what one of our posters is upset about. As a general these days, if you beat your wife and she or someone else complains, you go to jail.
I have no problem with this. If a woman injured a man in the past, she could pretty much always expect jail. Fair's fair. |
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| To: zonder who wrote (70880) | 10/22/2003 3:39:18 PM | | From: Lazarus_Long | | | | Oh, but the air of mystery you wrap this in simply adds to the spice that entices us on.
Hmmmm. I've got to presume at this point that you have good reason for thinking it would be an object of attack. Were you to say the UK or Canada or numerous other nations, it wouldn't be. But obviously this is not the case.
OK. Not Angola.
Iraq?
(You might be surprised what a "Yes" could get. Most Iraqis over here aren't here because the loved the gov't there.) |
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| To: zonder who wrote (70880) | 10/22/2003 3:44:17 PM | | From: Rainy_Day_Woman | | | | untrue
she didn't insult Angola - she did call you on living in a tax haven
MD:
you told me once there had been approximately 10,000 deaths due to terrorists in your country over the past 10 years...
i'll guess you are from angola....just a guess and if i am right i would not expect you to acknowledge it (but somehow i think you will tell me if i am wrong <g>)
not that i care where you are from, but i certainly think it sheds light on your perspective.
and if the history of your country wrt its inability to deal with terrorist attacks at home is true.... i can certainly understand why you would take up residence in monaco.
your reply
i can certainly understand why you would take up residence in monaco.
Actually I came to live here because it is a little paradise on the Mediterranean that also happens to be a financial center ("no tax" attracts a lot of money).
i'll guess you are from angola
Yes. I am from Angola. Happy now?
(Let's see what the clowns can dig up on Angola just to spite me :-) |
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