| To: Rainy_Day_Woman who wrote (70781) | 10/20/2003 11:49:46 PM | | From: Sun Tzu | | | | > that is equality
That would be only one way to establish equality. Two people can take on different rights and responsibilities and in the end come out equal though not identical. BTW, I don't think women have equality in ME. I just don't think given the context of their society, not all of them have the hellish life that is often portrayed. |
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| To: average joe who wrote (70771) | 10/21/2003 12:14:08 AM | | From: Rainy_Day_Woman | | | | From the Manuscript of IbnFadlan, relating his Experiences with the Northmen in A.D. 922.
things were a tidge different in 922
we've come a long way baby....... |
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| To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (70783) | 10/21/2003 12:19:48 AM | | From: Sun Tzu | | | | > Lots of thoughts aren't comforting. They hardly justify murder.
I didn't say it does. But it does go to show the pressures are on both sides.
There is a good Iranian film called "Bride of Fire". It is the story of a tribal Arab girl who leaves the tribe early on and is raised in the city (i.e. Persian culture). On the surface the story is about a love triangle and a forced marriage. Dig a bit deeper and you will see it is about how the society equally forces the men and women to play their rolls wether they like it or not. Rent it if you get a chance.
> If it hurts so badly, don't do it. It doesn't. Not really.
And are you speaking from experience or is this idle conjecture?
> Money is worth having. Does this justify armed robbery? Kidnapping?
Bad example, even though for those who feel money is absolutely worth having, the answer is yes. BTW, try to read what I say not what you want to hear. I said, "Anything worth truly having is also worth dieing for." I did not say it is worth killing for (sometimes that is the case and other times it is not). How many people do you know who would knowingly choose to die for money?
> I say self defense and defense of the lives of others justifies murder.
There you go again discussing murder. Reread the above paragraph.
> What Saudi women realize about global society is of no account if Saudi women have no power.
Women have always had plenty of power and Saudi women are no exception. The issue is not if they can do anything about it, but rather do they want to and are they willing to pay the price for change. Here is a simpler way to see this: by and large the wives are chosen by the mothers and sisters for their sons and brothers. The day that Saudi women decide a good wife for their son is one who is a real partner in life rather than an obidient little girl is the day they are ready for change.
> One the counterarguments against your position that life so horribly awful for Western women...
You want to show me where I said that?
> Oh, I understand they are an extreme case of Islam.
Wrong! The issue is purely cultural and not religious. If anything, Saudis passed a chunk of their culture into Islam despite lack of official endorsement for it in Islam.
> What they do is taken from the Quran, though.
So now you are an Islamic scholar?! Given a choice between Quran and Torah, I take Quran any day and twice on Saturdays. Do you really want to go there?
> Some, such as Iran and, until the US invasion, Afghanistan, do.
So you think Iran is a strict interpretation of Quran? Shows how much you know. And btw, there is a lot more to Islam than just Quran. |
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| To: Rainy_Day_Woman who wrote (70791) | 10/21/2003 12:39:24 AM | | From: Sun Tzu | | | | I am not sure women have true equality anywhere in the world. But then again I have not lived everywhere. I would say though, satisfaction and enjoyment of life is more important than some abstract academic or legal measure of equality. I repeat, I know of several ME women who feel life is easier for women back home than in America. Granted, all of them were from the more liberal countries of ME and North Africa, so a Saudi woman may have a different opinion. Then again she may not.
I've also been to Kuwait. Kuwait is another country in which, at least on paper, women have very few rights. Just the same, most women seemed to be happy. This was in no small parts because Kuwaitis, in general, don't do much; they have workers from elsewhere to do everything for them. This means that the women get to spend their husband's money on jewelry and expensive (though I must say ugly) cloths, and socialize in various women "circles" while the foreign maids tend to every aspect of their home life. I wouldn't find such a life satisfying, but I can think of much worse. |
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| To: average joe who wrote (70778) | 10/21/2003 12:46:54 AM | | From: Sun Tzu | | | | | Nice find! One of the interesting aspects not mentioned here is that Shahrzad asked for the job. If I recall correctly, she relieved another girl so she could take her place. Besides this one I know of several other ME tales in which the woman proves to be smarter than the man and uses her wit to save her family. Such stories would not exist if the local culture thought it unfathomable for a woman to do a man's job (and do it better, btw). |
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| To: Sun Tzu who wrote (70790) | 10/21/2003 12:47:02 AM | | From: Rainy_Day_Woman | | | | What you saw is nontheless an Iranian community and as such it reflects the issues and the values of Iranians
yes, within the freedom of press and speech America allows
some of the issues they are now free to express:
Matter of choice - Wearing the hijab is not the deciding factor in whether someone is good or not
Symbol of struggle - On both a de facto and de jure level Iranian woman face mountains in their pursuit for gender equality.
If he were alive - It was 13 of Tir (July 4) 1992. They claimed he died 6th of Azar (November 27) that year but we believe it was earlier, in late August, when they killed him. When I think that he spent the last days and months of his life in captivity and under torture and that they changed his words and his writings, it makes me sick to my stomach. I tremble at the thought of it. But I remember his famous verse, beh yek baareh jaan dar setam soukhtan maraa behtar az baa setam saakhtan. (Better to be burned by tyranny, than to live with tyranny.)
The outsider - President Khatami finally reacted to Shirin Ebadi's Nobel Peace Prize, five days after the fact, and on the day of her triumphant return to Iran. He congratulated her but his praise was mixed with comments that showed discomfort, if not fear -- fear of what it could all mean to the future of the Islamic Republic.
"This award has been given to her totally on the basis of political considerations," Khatami was quoted as saying to reporters. He called the Peace Prize "not very important" compared with other Nobel awards, such as science and literature.
Prize for courage - As Iranians in the US, when we decide to go in front of any Federal building such as the one in Los Angeles to make a defiant statement against the regime in Iran or any adverse US policies against Iranians, many of us wear dark sunglasses and some wear scarves so that we won't be recognized by secret agents of either governments!
Here in the United States, the freest country in the world, many of us are still dubious about our level of freedom and liberty. We are somewhat paranoid that our phone lines may be tapped and trashcans searched and bank accounts audited. But step back for a few minutes to better appreciate of how much courage and valor it takes for someone like Ebadi to be who she is in today's Iran.
Dokhtari beh naameh Gohar - Girls raped by fathers not uncommon in rural areas of Iran
very interesting reading.. |
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| To: Sun Tzu who wrote (70794) | 10/21/2003 1:05:32 AM | | From: Rainy_Day_Woman | | | | of course satisfaction and enjoyment of life is the ultimate
what do you enjoy doing? what gives you satisfaction? you pick what you enjoy, you follow what gives you satisfaction - your satisfaction and enjoyment is not Joe Blows - you are both individuals
my point was, in America, you can follow that dream if you are a woman
how many women in the ME can follow their hearts desire? decide to not follow their families religion? become a police officer if they choose? the majority? half? 25%?
This means that the women get to spend their husband's money on jewelry and expensive (though I must say ugly) cloths, and socialize in various women "circles" while the foreign maids tend to every aspect of their home life. I wouldn't find such a life satisfying, but I can think of much worse.
their husbands money? that says it all
no wonder you wouldn't find it satisfying, few would
I can think of much worse too, but it doesn't mean I would want to live that life - hardly satisfaction or enjoyment |
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| To: Rainy_Day_Woman who wrote (70796) | 10/21/2003 1:11:52 AM | | From: Sun Tzu | | | | > yes, within the freedom of press and speech America allows
The First Amendment is great, no questions about it.
> Symbol of struggle ...
Doesn't seem like they are kept as uneducated kept at home display things, does it? Quite to the contrary, this article sites the Iranian women as the engine of change both before and after the revolution. Don't you think if the society as a whole could not accept women in important positions, this would not have been the case?
The thing to keep in mind when looking at the middle east (or any other region for that matter) is that many women issues are not women issues at all; they are simply reflections of larger socio-political problems of the whole country. It is not so much that Iranian women are oppressed and are fighting for their rights, but that the Iranian people as whole are oppressed and are fighting for their freedom.
I don't have the numbers here, so I am only talking based on my impression of the events, but Iranian women are very active in trying to bring in political change to their country. Yet I am pretty sure the number of women killed at the hands of the regime is considerably less than the number of men executed for similar "crimes". Doesn't seem like women always get the short end of the stick there.
Like you said, interesting reads.
ST |
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