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   PoliticsActual left/right wing discussion


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To: dybdahl who wrote (8697)12/3/2010 10:28:35 AM
From: koan
   of 10074
 
<<And cupcakes evolved from cups.>>

Many think the physical universe may have evolved in a similar manner to the biological world.

Evolution may be a fundamental manifestation of the infinite universe like waves and maybe consciousness?

Knowing we evolved from monkeys is real easy. Just look a chimp in the eye and you will see a reflection of yourself.

There can be no doubt they are our relatives.

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To: koan who wrote (8700)12/3/2010 10:51:57 AM
From: dybdahl
   of 10074
 
It may work for you, but I have never seem myself reflected in the eyes of a chimp.

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To: koan who wrote (8700)12/3/2010 11:10:23 AM
From: Oeconomicus
   of 10074
 
"Just look a chimp in the eye and you will see a reflection of yourself.

There can be no doubt they are our relatives."


True, though I suspect the majority of Republicans and conservatives recognize that. Feel free to prove otherwise, of course.

BTW, you might be interested in this from ABC News last night: abcnews.go.com

More on "Learning morality from monkeys" from the interviewee in that report, Frans de Waal, Yerkes Primate Center, Emory Univ.
youtube.com

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To: Lane3 who wrote (8698)12/3/2010 11:23:24 AM
From: koan
   of 10074
 
<< Most "scientists" are in the soft sciences. Science doesn't have the rigor or integrity it once had.>>

Come on!

<<Most scientists identify as Democrats (55%), while 32% identify as independents and just 6% say they are Republicans. When the leanings of independents are considered, fully 81% identify as Democrats or lean to the Democratic Party, compared with 12% who either identify as Republicans or lean toward the GOP.>>

neogaf.com

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To: koan who wrote (8703)12/3/2010 11:55:47 AM
From: Lane3
5 Recommendations   of 10074
 
Come on!

That sounds like a belief response to me. You can trust scientists if you like, but scientists are human just like everyone else. They are affected by incentives just like everyone else. And they are affected by bias, just like everyone else. Otherwise you wouldn't find scientists on both sides of most political questions.

The science I follow most closely is in the health arena, where you find all sorts of invalid conclusions claimed from poorly designed studies. You can come up with a "scientific" study to show whatever you want it to show, and that's the way it often happens.

There's a big debate going on right now about Vitamin D. Opinions could not be more diverse. If the science and the scientists were rigorous, there wouldn't be differences of opinion. There would just be facts. Now Vitamin D is a relatively simple thing. Imagine what a muddle the science can be on something really complicated.

You can accept what your scientists say out of belief or you can look at the studies yourself, apply some logic, and see the flaws. I prefer analysis to belief. Color me skeptical about modern science and scientists.

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To: dybdahl who wrote (8701)12/3/2010 12:20:05 PM
From: koan
1 Recommendation   of 10074
 
<<It may work for you, but I have never seem myself reflected in the eyes of a chimp.>>

Most people don't and it has always puzzled me. It is so obvious?

And science has confirmed what we are seeing in that the DNA of a chimp is 98% the same as ours and more than any other animal.

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To: Oeconomicus who wrote (8702)12/3/2010 12:21:50 PM
From: koan
   of 10074
 
Thank you for the video's.

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To: Lane3 who wrote (8704)12/3/2010 12:32:01 PM
From: koan
   of 10074
 
<<Color me skeptical about modern science and scientists.>>

Of course there are problems with scientists. But that is because of the human condition.

Until we got science and reason we believed all sorts of crazy shit. Still do.

Science gave us the ability to go to the moon, increase our life span by 30 years, treat horrible medical conditions like small pox and polio and infection.

It is not perfect, but what it does is allows us to verify things which heretofore were myths. Like the sun being at the center of the solar system and the world being round.

We have even figured out how old the universe is and relativity and quantum mechanics. Which is astounding for a smart chimp!

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To: koan who wrote (8707)12/3/2010 12:56:21 PM
From: Lane3
3 Recommendations   of 10074
 
Until we got science and reason we believed all sorts of crazy shit. Still do.

Unfortunately, since science has been compromised, we not only have people believing "all sorts of crazy shit," we have people believing all sorts of crazy shit to which credence has been lent by science. The former is relatively easy to identify and debunk. Anyone with a functioning brain knows that astrology is bogus. The latter, however, has an aura of science about it that is protective. Hard to get through to anyone that dietary cholesterol doesn't cause heart disease. The myths that are promulgated by scientists die harder than those promulgated by Aunt Tillie or some geezer with a funny eye and a snake or even a pastor wielding fire and brimstone.

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To: koan who wrote (8678)12/3/2010 1:02:16 PM
From: TimF
2 Recommendations   of 10074
 
No, no, no, those organizations are our creation, they are us.

I didn't create any of them, not even as part of a collective effort. Most likely you have not either, certainly not the more major government organizations like the federal and state governments.

But that doesn't really matter much. My point was not that they where not our creations, but that they are not us. If we assume they are our creations they still are not us. A company is not its founder. A child is not his parents, and his parents are not him. Governments are not us. And as I pointed out before, even if they where it wouldn't matter much in terms of this conversation. "Our creations" even "Us" or not, they still are limited by the constitution, and such limits are a good thing. The fact that most adult citizens get to vote in federal elections, doesn't imply or suggest that the federal government should have almost unlimited power, even when what it is doing is very popular.

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