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Corps Wants to Put Silencers on a Whole Infantry Battalion
In a series of experiments this year, units from 2nd Marine Division will be silencing every element of an infantry battalion -- from M4 rifles to .50 caliber machine guns.
The commanding general of 2nd Marine Division, Maj. Gen. John Love, described these plans during a speech to Marines at the Marine Corps Association Ground Dinner this month near Washington, D.C.
The proof-of-concept tests, he said, included Bravo Company, 1st Battalion, 2nd Marines, which began an Integrated Training Exercise pre-deployment last month at Marine Corps Air-Ground Combat Center Twentynine Palms.
"What we've found so far is it revolutionizes the way we fight," Love told Military.com. "It used to be a squad would be dispersed out over maybe 100 yards, so the squad leader couldn't really communicate with the members at the far end because of all the noise of the weapons. Now they can actually just communicate, and be able to command and control and effectively direct those fires."
Chief Warrant Officer 5 Christian Wade, the division's gunner, or infantry weapons officer, said the Lima companies in two other battalions -- 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines, and 3rd Battalion, 8th Marines -- now had silencers, or suppressors, on all their rifles, including the M27 infantry automatic rifles. All units are set to deploy in coming months. The combat engineer platoons that are attached to these units and will deploy with them will also carry suppressed weapons, he said.
Suppressors work by slowing the escape of propellant gases when a gun is fired, which drastically reduces the sound signature. Used by scout snipers and special operations troops to preserve their stealth, the devices are also valuable for their ability to minimize the chaos of battle, enabling not only better communication but also improved situational awareness and accuracy.
"It increases their ability to command and control, to coordinate with each other," Wade told Military.com. "They shoot better, because they can focus more, and they get more discipline with their fire."
The noise of gunfire can create an artificial stimulus that gives the illusion of effectiveness, he said. When it's taken away, he explained, Marines pay more attention to their shooting and its effect on target.
"They've got to get up and look, see what effect they're having on the enemy because you can't hear it," he said.
He added that suppressors were already in common use by near-peer militaries, including those of Russia and China.
Wade said he is working on putting suppressors on the Marines' M249 light machine gun and M240G medium machine gun, using equipment from Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command. The third and final objective will be the suppression of the .50 caliber heavy machine gun, he said.
As the units conduct training and exercises with suppressors, 2nd Marine Division is collaborating with the Marine Corps Warfighting Lab to collect and aggregate data. Weapons with suppressors require additional maintenance and cleaning to prevent fouling, and the cost, nearly $700,000 to outfit an infantry battalion, might give planners pause.
But Wade said he will continue to gather data for the next year-and-a-half, following the units as they deploy. And he expects the idea to have gained significant traction among Marine Corps leadership by then, he said.
"When I show how much overmatch we gain … it will have sold itself," he said.
What an interesting story. Do you know the details of why he went? I'm sure he didn't have to.
Thanks for asking. Since I am the youngest I asked my oldest sister. This is her response.
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i dont recall him every speaking about it to me. but i knew quite well from mother that he certainly did not have togo as he was about 35 or 36 and i had already been born! he volunteered. it would be nice to get his army papers. it seems that he landed at normandy, but am not certain. for years we had nazi things decorating our rec room on eldamere. many years later he gave them to cousin gerald, i think. about 20 years ago i met with gerald and asked him about that. but he didn't have them anywmore. it was unclear exactly what they were. i can picture them though nailed to the wall. some guns aned a bayonette.
You have stirred a few memories for me. I remember the rec room. As I recall, he told me that when they occupied a town the civilians had to surrender all their weapons which were burned. Before the bond fire he had a chance to pick through and ship some home. When I was old enough to start showing an interest in them he throw the ammo in the sewer and got rid of most of the rest. I do not even remember my cousin Gerald but I remember the few things we kept. I do remember two rifles he kept. One i think was a Mauser and the other had two triggers . After he dies my Mom sold all if it as me were moving from a house into an apartment.
As to your specific question I can only answer in general. I expect that like most immigrants from the various hell holes they came from (he was a Jew from Czarist Russia) he loved this country and was willing to die to protect it.
The United States Marine Corps | Pastime Discussion ForumsShare
It's really a shame that he didn't keep more of the memorabilia, but after a while it probably was just a bad memory. Did you know your mother was going to get rid of the last remaining guns? It might be neat to have, but she was probably afraid for you to be around them. Thanks for sharing.
The United States Marine Corps | Pastime Discussion ForumsShare
This is a great video of our military guys who were held in North Vietnam prisons. I had never seen this before and I had no idea how these guys felt all these years about Nixon.
Why not share this magnificent video with your friends.
Vietnam POWs - 40 years later
No matter what one may think of Nixon now - watch this!
The United States Marine Corps | Pastime Discussion ForumsShare
What an interesting story. Do you know the details of why he went? I'm sure he didn't have to.
I was digging through some old papers of mine. In 1967 I had to do an immigration paper for 8'th grade history. Being lazy I recorded an interview with my dad and transcribed. So with out depending on anyone's memory I can state that he was 17 when he arrived in this country and went into the Army at 37.
Last question and I quote "Do you feel America had a right to draft you since you were only here a few years?
Reply:" Absolutely! Every citizens duty to defend the Country when he is called for."
It was quite a journey from Mecheska Okna Russia. If I can figure out how to do it, is there an appropriate thread I could post this into? Also the letter I reference below.
There is also a letter or at least the first 2 pages of a letter a Brit wrote him after the war. I wish I knew the context but the writer waxed philisophical on the war and international relations.
The United States Marine Corps | Pastime Discussion ForumsShare
Neeka — 5th Great Grandfather — Capt. Increase Graham Child (1740-1810) Connecticut Soldiers, French and Indian War, 1755-62, later the Continental Army during numerous battles of the American Revolution 1775-83 Biography-1 & Biography-2
US SPECIAL FORCES
Alan Smithee (Brother-in-Law, Lieutenant, US Special Forces Green Beret, Viet Nam appx. 1967-1968) ManyMoose (cousin - Special Forces Medic, Vietnam era and Central America) unclewest (Army 1962/1982 - SFTG, 5th SFGA, 3rd SFGA, Berlin Detachment "A", Instructor Jump School)
USMC
Alan Smithee (Father, Lt. Col. USMC (Ret.). Served in Korea, Haiti, Okinawa and Vietnam) Carolyn (Friend - Cy Meyers WWII on Iwo Jima. Currently a PCO in WA - Veterans Tribute) cjac (Son: USMC, 1989/2001 active, Gulf War, crew chief on C-20) D. Austin (Father WWII Marine at Iwo Jima - Marine 3rd Division) DMaA (Uncle - Marine Ranger WWII (recon work on Jap held islands prior to invasion) Gina Verner (cousin, Marine in Vietnam and Reserve) Glenn Petersen (Uncle - U.S. Marines, 1941-1945, survivor of Iwo Jima) Glenn Petersen (two cousins - U.S. Marines, served in Vietnam) goldworldnet (Dad also) Myself: MOS 2911-Telephone Switchboard Repair (Active 1yr - Reserve 5yr) greenspirit (nephew-soon to return from Afghanistan) GROUND ZERO (Wife's Dad - USMC) jallen (Great grandfather namesake John was with 1ST Maine at Gettysburg, father in Korea and Vietnam) JDN (USMC as Forward Observer (F.O.) radio operator in Vietnam) JDN (Brother #3 - Battlefield commission for capturing a Japanese General on Okinawa) Ken Adams (1955-59, reserve 4 more years. 7th Engineer Battalion, Construction Surveyor & Construction Draftsman) KLP (great uncle US Marines WWI - killed in action) LindyBill (Current active duty Marine friend of LindyBill) ManyMoose (Father, USMC 1938-1946, Staff Sergeant, Recruiter, Navigator-Bombardier PBJ - Mitchell B-25) ManyMoose (Brother, USMC Vietnam, Aircraft Maintenance and door gunner) Rick Slemmer (USMC 1972-1979) RinConRon (Dad is a WWII Marine 1942-45, Guadalcanal and Saipan) Roebear (Son and Daughter in law serving as Marines in Iraq) simplicity (other brother-in-law: USMC, 1965-1969) SULLY (Father WWII Marine at Iwo Jima - 25th Marine Regiment, 4th Marine Division) TideGlider unclewest (Niece - with the MEU on the East flank from Kuwait to Baghdad)
US NAVY
cjac (Dad, Army WWI transfered to Navy) DMaA (Father - Navy radio man WWII) Don Rhodes (east coast sailor, precluded V.N. duties) Don Rhodes (4 cousins Vietnam era) Geoff Altman, USN, Avionics Technician First Class, 1982-2002 Retired) Geoff Altman (Dad, Pilot, LCDR USNR) Geoff Altman (Mother, Aircraft Mechanic, AD2 USN) Geoff Altman (Brother, LT. Instructor Pilot USN, same brother: USAR Veternary Doctor, Major.) goldworldnet (Uncle Bill - Navy SEAL UD specialist, multiple Vietnam tours, Commander) Hawkmoon (Father, US Navy veteran) JDN (Brother #2 WWII veteran) Jorj X Mckie (Dad served in the Navy during WWII) KLP (Son Navy Pilot - "Top Gun"- his CO said...P-3) KLP (Father's cousin killed in the Battle of Java Sea on the USS Houston) ManyMoose (Uncle, Navy Seabees, Dutch Harbor, Alaska) Oral Roberts (Submariner - Shellback & Bluenose - Medically retired) quehubo (USN Veteran of cold war serving during the great years of the Reagan presidency) relewis (Father was in the Navy in WWI) robert a belfer (USN, STGC - retired - "Sonar Technician - Surface" "Chief Petty Officer") Ron M (USN Civil Engr Corps Viet Nam 69/70) Tech Master (Field Corpsman) PROLIFE (Son, Navy communications on Saratoga Carrier in Gulf War 1) Ruffian (Dad - US Marines in WW2 - Tulagi and Guadalcanal) Ruffian (Eight Uncles in WW2 - multiple branches of service) simplicity (Dad: Navy Radioman First Class in World War II ) Still Believing (Both Grandfathers in US Navy, WWII) Triffin (Uncle: US Navy WWII & Korea) Triffin (Grandfather: US Navy WWI & WWII) Vendit™ (Son currently US Navy on the GHW Bush aircraft carrier. (CVN 77) Two Mid East deployments. vireya (Son) US Navy pilot now deceased in mission 21 Mar 1991
US ARMY
aladin (Father: WW2 North Africa, Sicily & Italy - transfered Army Air Corp in England 1944 - served on B-17's over Germany - served Korean War; 32 years retired 1969) aladin (Paternal Grandfather: US Army, Spanish American War, WW1 - seriously wounded in France) aladin (Maternal Grandfather: honorable mention Canadian Army - WW1 - France and Belgium) cjac (Granddad: Spanish-American War, Calvary) D. Long (Father: US Army, Vietnam) D. Long (Uncle 1: US Army, Airborn, Korea) D. Long (Uncle 2: US Army, Korea) D. Long (Uncle 3: US Army, Vietnam) D. Long (Grandfather: US Army, mechanized infantry, WWII France, Italy, Austria) D. Long (Great Grandfather: US Army, infantry, WWI France) D. Long (Great Great Grandfather: Civil War) D. Long (Great, etc. Granduncle: US Army, infantry, Civil War) DMaA (Uncle - Army MP - Present at Japanese surrender and guarded numerous high ranking jap Generals and Admirals) DanDerr (West Point) Farmboy (1972-1992, Ret. Master Sgt. - 3 yrs Korea, 6 years Africa/Mid East W/DIA on Embassy and other duties) Gina Vener (mother, Tec5 US Army, WWII) Glenn Petersen (Father - U.S. Army 1941-1946, stationed in India) goldworldnet (Wife's Dad WWII Vet) goldworldnet (Step Dad stationed in Alaska) GROUND ZERO (Army 313th ASA Group, 101st Airborne) Hawkmoon (Army 14 years active/reserve CavScout/Humint'r, 2 years DOD contractor in Iraq) Hawkmoon (Uncle, Army, Vietnam veteran) ISH (Germany - 581st ambulance company - Army Medic - 2nd Gen at Landstuhl) ISH (fishin buddy Owen-enlisted at 16, Pacific theater WWII and Korea / 1st brother killed in WWII, 2nd brother killed in Korea) JDN (Brother #1 Navy WWII tranfered to Army-Korea) jlallen Jorj X Mckie (Uncle) Sgt. Francis Joseph Dietz - Purple Heart - 101st Infantry Regiment, 26th Infantry Division, Died March 18, 1945 in the Battle of the Bulge Buried at the American Military Cemetery in Luxembourg KLP (Great-great... Grandfather was killed as Army Union/Civil War) KLP (Great-great... Uncle 24 y/o, joined an Union Iowa Regiment - injured at Pleasant Hill, LA...died as POW) KLP (more family - War of 1812, Rev War, French and Indian War, Civil War both sides, and at least 2 in King Phillips War) LindyBill (US ARMY: Shop Clerk, 48th Ordnance co, DS, 54/56 Germany. Grandfather, Major, Philippines, Doctor, Med Corps. 1901) Many Moose (Father-in-law, US Army Air Corps, 8th Air Force, 306th Bomb Group (First over Germany), First Pilot, B-17, Shot down on 13th mission, POW 2 years, Stalag 3) ManyMoose (Son-in-law, US Army in service, Major, MD, forensic pathologist - Ft. Lewis Washington) ManyMoose (Brother-in-law, 1st Lt. US Army, Vietnam era) Murrey Walker (1966-1968 1st Lt, Army Air Defense - Korea (67-68), last 7 months as Battery Commander, Battery B, 2 Bn, 7th Artillery, 39th Artillery Brigade) Neeka (Great Uncle U.S. Army WW2) Neeka (Great Grandfathers in both the Union Army Civil War and Revolutionary War) PartyTime (Honorably discharged non-combatant conscientious objector) PatiBob (Father- Army, WWII, demolitions expert. Spent 3 years in a German POW camp) Peter van Steennis (Army Reserve 1964-70) PROLIFE (Dad in Germany in WWII) relewis (active duty U.S.Army at Ft Benning, Ga 1958-60 and active USAR 1960-62) robert a belfer (Father - Ben Belfer US Army in Europe during WWII, enlisted at age 37) Robet A. Miller (E-5 computer analyst discharged in 1968) sandintoes (Father was in the Army Air Corps) sandintoes (Son was in the Army Engineering division) sandintoes (Nephew Roger, helicopter pilot, and has already served three tours) simplicity (Great-Great Grandfather: General Joseph Kershaw, Confederate Civil War General who fought at Bull Run, Fredericksburg, Gettysburg, and Sayler's Creek) stillholding (father served as foot soldier in WWII...lost all his teeth in North Africa) Still Believing (Grandfather's cousin, was 4 star General in US Army) Tech Master (Dad was U.S. Army Chemical Corps) Tech Master (Great Uncle "Georgie" ... purple hearts in WWII (Italy and France) and in Korea) Triffin (Father: WWII & Korea [3 purple hearts-2 bronze stars-2 silver stars-1 Legion of merit] Triffin (Grandfather: US Army Medic WWI) unclewest (step-brother, SFC(P) Billy S, is a Bradley Platoon Sgt., just back from 2nd Bde, 4th ID. Medical returnee due to wounds) vireya (US Army Security Agency 1955-58) William Brotherson
US AIR FORCE
cjak (USAF ADC, 1961-1965) Bridge Player (brother - WWII bombardier flew 34 missions over Germany) D. Long (Cousin: US Air Force, MP, Britain) Don Rhodes (cousin career officer Vietnam era) MrLucky "aka Elwood Blues" (4 years USAF with 1 year overseas - also Arctic Bluenose) Geoff Altman (Sister, USAF Captain Nurse.) greg s (Strategic Air Command, Titan II intercontinental ballistic missile launch officer, '70's) lightshipsailor (Son "Jim" ret. LCOL 2009) Last assignment was as a manager in the A-10 Warthog modernization program where he remains as a civilian employee of the USAF. ManyMoose (Father-in-law, USAAF 1941, Flight Officer, B-17 pilot 12 1/5 missions, POW Stalag 3 two years) ManyMoose (Brother-in-Law, USAF, Lt. Col.(ret), B-52 pilot, Combat missions during Vietnam War, Instructor Pilot SAC) Ron M (Father---WWII-Carpetbaggers USAAC-OSS) sandintoes (Brother was in Air Force) Stan (Tactical Air Command. Imagery Interpreter Specialist - Vietnam Era) simplicity (brother-in-law: Lt. Col. USAF, Vietnam, Pentagon) Tech Master (Brother USAF) Tom Clarke (Father 25 years USAF) Tom Clarke (Brother USAF and Air Force Reserve) Tom Clarke (Brother USAF and Air National Guard) unclewest (Nephew, USAF CPT, headed to Iraq (2x) in a few weeks. His sister, a USAF LT, is in flight training now.) Vendit™ (Father was USAF during WWII) William H Hueb
US NATIONAL GUARD
haqihana (49th Armored Division 8 years - activated for the Berlin Wall Crisis) PROLIFE (NG 1972-1978) Still Believing (Cousin National Guard)
US COAST GUARD
lightshipsailor (USCG) active duty from January 1955 until January 1959 - discharged in 1963 as radioman 2nd class (E-5) vireya (Father - WWII Coast Guard)
MERCHANT MARINES
Neeka (Dad WWII Pacific theater, German POW transport, Korean War) SULLY (Father WWII Merchant Marine)
AMERICAN EXPEDITIONARY FORCES
jallen (Grandfather was with AEF in WWI) RinConRon (Grandfather was WWI AEF in France, 1917-1918)
PEACE CORPS
kodiak_bull kumar rangan (Ms Lilian Carter - friend of family)
FIREFIGHTERS AND POLICE AND OTHER MEDICAL CARE
D. Long (was a volunteer fireman in PA ) ManyMoose (forester for 38 years starting 1962 as a fire lookout. Last year of service 2003 as Regional Inventory Specialist) TideGlider (Police - State Special Investigations Supervisor) Wharf Rat (Director of Respiratory Therapy at the Palo Alto VA 10 years) William Brotherson (Fire Marshall)
FRIENDS SUPPORTING OUR AMERICAN HEROES
ManyMoose (draft designation 1Y, turned down by USMC, Vietnam era) aladin alanrs Alan Smithee albert kovalyov Augustus Gloop Bearcatbob Big Black Swan Bill bob BobP Brian Sullivan Bridge Player (4F) briskit Brumar89 Carolyn CF Rebel CobaltBlue Copeland country bob D. Austin D. Long DewDiligence_on_SI Elroy Follies FUBHO garrettjax Gina Vener Glenn Petersen gotober Gottfried greatplains_guy Hannoverian Hoa Hao Honey_bee Honor First i-node ig J.B.C. JEB Joe Btfsplk Joe NYC John Carragher Jorj X Mckie Justin C Katelew KLP kumar rangan Lazarus_Long Little Joe locogringo longnshort MichaelSkyy miraje mistermj MKTBUZZ mph Nadine Carroll Naomi Neeka Neil H Neocon Oblivious PatiBob Patrick Slevin Paul Smith Peter Dierks PlayItDown™ Ponokee prometheus1976 richard surckla RinConRon rudi Ruffian sandintoes Sdgla SecularBull SI Ron (Hall Monitor) simplicity SirWalterRalegh skinowski sm1th SmoothSail Stevefoder steve harris SteveinTX Still Believing stillholding sullie6 SULLY t4texas Tim Fowler Tim Lamb Tom Clarke tonto Triffin Victor Lazlo
...and Thanks and Gratitude To All Others This List Has Missed !
* * *
The United States Marine Corps | Pastime Discussion ForumsShare
So what’s on General Robert Neller‘s Christmas list? Cyber specialists, electronic warfare troops, intelligence analysts, targeteers, engineers, anti-aircraft troops, and artillerymen with anti-ship missiles. The Marine Corps grew to 202,000 for Iraq and Afghanistan by adding combat troops, Neller told the US Naval Institute conference on Wednesday, but for a future war against increasingly sophisticated adversaries — try Russia or China — what the Marines need more of is high-tech support troops. That’s the portion of the force Neller plans to plus up with the 3,000 extra Marines in the latest draft of the annual defense bill, and that’s what he wants to keep adding to, even if he has to take Marines out of other jobs to do it. “First things first, before we start growing more infantry or armor or things like that, y’know, the battlefield has changed,” Neller told reporters after his USNI remarks. “If we were still fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan, in a stability/insurgency operation, I’d say, yeah, we’d probably need more infantry battalions….But if we’re looking down the road of the future, the capabilities we need more of now, in my mind, are those areas that I talked about: information, cyber, intelligence analysis, communication, air defense, deception, engineering….things like that.”
Those “are the things that we’re really going to need for the future,” Neller continued, “and if you don’t have those things, whatever formation you put on the battlefield is not going to be as survivable or combat effective.”
Even against relatively low-tech enemies in Afghanistan and Iraq, infantry Marines relied on electronic warfare to jam remote detonators for roadside bombs, GPS satellites to help them navigate, drones to scout ahead, and wireless networks to transmit intelligence, orders, and plans. Now both Russia and the Islamic State have used their own remote-controlled drones in combat, putting a new premium on long-neglected jamming and anti-aircraft capabilities. Russian and Chinese hackers have hit networks from the Pentagon to the defense industry to the Democratic National Committee, inspiring massive investments in cyber defense. Even Lebanon’s Hezbollah and Yemen’s Houthi rebels now have anti-ship cruise missiles, forcing the Navy and Marines to rethink how they land and support troops ashore.
“We’re fighting in space, we’re fighting in the cyber domain, we’re fighting in the information domain,” said Neller, asking USNI audience members to raise their hands if they, like him, had had their identity stolen.
Warfare is changing even in the traditional Marine Corps domains of land, air, and sea. “We’re not just going to be able to sail around and go where we want to go and do what we want to do” — as we have since the Soviet Union fell — “because of the range and accuracy of anti-ship or coastal defense cruise missiles, the ability of mines to actually hunt you and find you,” Neller told reporters, previewing the driving concerns of the impending Littoral Warfare Concept. “If you’re in a small sea like the Arabian Gulf, or the Med, or the Black Sea, or the Baltic, the munitions have the ability to shoot all the way across.”
“It cuts both ways,” Neller continued. The golden rule of warfare, after all, is do unto others as they would do unto you, but do it first. “I would love to have an anti-ship cruise missile I could shoot out of a HIMARS launcher,” Neller said, “so if the Marines were to go for example to seize and secure an advanced expeditionary amphibious base, and the adversary had ships, rather than attack them with an airplane, I’d like to have some way to defend from shore.”
The secretive Strategic Capabilities Office is already working with the Army on an anti-ship seeker for the ATACMS missile, which can be fired from the HIMARS launchers already in service with both the Army and the Marines. SCO is also working on Hypervelocity Projectiles (HVPs) that can be fired from a conventional Army or Marine howitzer but which attain such velocity they could be used to shoot down incoming missiles. And Raytheon has developed an anti-ship version of its Excalibur precision-guided artillery shell. While Neller declined to name any of these technologies, he did say both that he was interested in new munitions that offered new ways of using existing weapons and that he was working with the SCO.
New equipment is important, but new training is critical. Wargames at 29 Palms in California now include urban combat, with “subterranean areas” like sewers and subways coming soon, Neller said. There are enemy drones, with (simulated) enemy airstrikes in the works; (simulated) artillery fire if the Marines stay in the open too long; and jamming and hacking of command-and-control networks.
In the future, “you’re going to have fight for information, you’re going to have to fight to see, you’re going to have to fight to not be seen,” Neller said. If you don’t want your riflemen fighting blind, deaf, and dumb, you need cyber/electronic warriors, intelligence analysts, and other support troops currently in short supply. “So,” he said, in addition to those traditional (combat arms) capabilities, you’re going to have to grow these other (supporting) capabilities.”
That said, “we follow orders,” Neller emphasized. Growing 13 more combat battalions would require a large-scale, long-term expansion of Marine Corps recruiting, training, and infrastructure, he said, but “if that’s what we’re told to do, we’ll go out there and do our very best to do it.”
