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   PoliticsPolitics for Pros- moderated


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To: LindyBill who wrote (148637)11/24/2005 7:00:27 PM
From: Nadine Carroll
   of 756183
 
Now this is a new development:

DEBKAfile Exclusive: US Marines are locked in battle with Syrian troops after crossing the border from Iraq into Syria at a point west of al Qaim

November 25, 2005, 12:27 AM (GMT+02:00)

Both sides have suffered casualties. US soldiers crossed over after Damascus was given an ultimatum Thursday, Nov. 24, to hand over a group of senior commanders belonging to Abu Musab al Zarqawi’s al Qaeda force. According to US intelligence, the group had fled to Syria to escape an American attack in Mosul. Syrian border guards opened fire on the American force.


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To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (148638)11/24/2005 7:04:43 PM
From: LindyBill
   of 756183
 
According to US intelligence, the group had fled to Syria to escape an American attack in Mosul. Syrian border guards opened fire on the American force.

About time we got rid of this "Cambodia" crap. Look for the left to scream about us "widening the war."

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To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (148636)11/24/2005 7:04:55 PM
From: Lane3
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None of the clowns making the "I was misled" argument can point to any piece of intelligence that would have been read differently by non-hawks.

I think we're talking about two different things. You're into the technical partisan infighting. I couldn't care less about that. I'm interested in the rationale for the war.

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To: Lane3 who wrote (148640)11/24/2005 7:09:51 PM
From: LindyBill
   of 756183
 
I'm interested in the rationale for the war.

What are you looking for? I am not going to bother to "laundry list" the reasons we went in. They have been chewed to death here, and we both know them.

I suspect that you now don't agree with the reasons we went in. I don't remember you being outspoken against us going in before the war, but I am not sure when you started posting here. So I don't know if you have changed your mind, or if you held the same views earlier.

Either way, it's obvious that you no longer accept the reasons we used when we went in and that no amount of discussion is going to change your mind.

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To: Lane3 who wrote (148640)11/24/2005 7:15:36 PM
From: Nadine Carroll
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I think we're talking about two different things. You're into the technical partisan infighting. I couldn't care less about that. I'm interested in the rationale for the war.

They are all related - the partisan stances spring from the different world-view that the left and the right have held since 9/11. And, imo, the left's unwillingness to face the realities of the situation because there are no answers for it in their playbook. You may not like the neocon answer, but they had one ready. The liberals were caught completely on the hop; the paleocons and the realists too for that matter.

You can suppose all you like the neocons read too much into the evidence because of their subconscious views or whatever, but you won't persuade me until you find some evidence. And no, just saying 'they were wrong in the event' is not evidence because policy decisions cannot be made in hindsight.

Saddams track record was of development and use of WMDs of all kinds, and of persistent attempts to evade the UN sanctions and keep developing them. Whenever the US was caught by surprise by Saddam before 2003, it was always because Saddam had MORE than we knew about, whether it was his nuclear program in 1991 or the biological weapons program that Hussein Kamel spilled the beans on in 1995. The evidence of 2202 was sketchy, but it pointed to more of the same pattern of behavior. Bear in mind that Saddam could have got the sanctions lifted if he'd come clean, and was costing himself literally hundreds of billions in revenue by his "cheat and retreat" policies.

No reasonable person would give Saddam Hussein the benefit of the doubt in that situation, and none did. Not in the US, not in Great Britain, not in France or Germany or Israel.

So what special pro-war "rationale" are you talking about?

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To: LindyBill who wrote (148639)11/24/2005 7:18:56 PM
From: Nadine Carroll
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About time we got rid of this "Cambodia" crap. Look for the left to scream about us "widening the war."

Naturally. Goes without saying.

Actually, to scream about widening the war, they might have to cover the war as a war, instead of list of explosions and body counts. So I don't know if they will.

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From: LindyBill11/24/2005 7:19:28 PM
   of 756183
 
You are going to be reading a lot about a Texas case where a witness has recanted. What will not be mentioned is that the hoodlum who was executed was in jail for shooting and trying to kill a police officer. He was then ID'd and executed for a previous killing.

Is a “Beyond All Possible Doubt” Standard for the Death Penalty Workable?
By Patterico on Crime

In response to my argument that no death sentence should be imposed unless the defendant’s guilt is proved with absolute certainty, some have argued that my standard is unworkable. I disagree. How can we know who is right?

One way is to ask someone who has actually been on a jury that imposed the death penalty on someone. So when commenter George S. left a comment on my blog saying that he had been on such a jury, I sent him an e-mail which said:

Thanks for your comment. I am interested to know whether you would have convicted your defendant, and sentenced him to death, applying a standard of beyond all possible doubt. What about the other members of the jury? Could you leave a comment on the blog, or respond in an e-mail that I can quote in a post? It’s important to the debate. Thanks.

He responded:

This was a case of “Beyond all Doubt.” The first poll of the jury after selection of a leader was 12 for guilty. We played devil’s advocate for a while but all agreed very strongly on the guilt. At the sentencing phase the result of the first poll was death (as opposed to a prison sentence of life) (it wasn’t discussed but I think all the jurors knew that it would be less than “life”). We again discussed it in great detail, the pros and cons and should we or shouldn’t we. Every poll (of several) agreed to the death penalty.

It’s hardly a comprehensive survey, but George S. has more relevant experience than most commenters here on the issue of what it’s like to confront these issues in the real world.
patterico.com

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To: LindyBill who wrote (148641)11/24/2005 7:23:14 PM
From: Lane3
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<iThey have been chewed to death here, and we both know them.

I don't want to go there either. Didn't mean to suggest that. Don't worry. I don't plan on going there nor to I plan to allow anyone to drag me.

The context of the discussion was whether Bush etc. lied. I have repeatedly suggested that he selectively read the tea leaves rather than lied. Nadine argued, as I understood her, that that was incompatible with the bad-intellegence cover-up/stonewall. I don't understand her point. It seems not only compatible but very natural to me.

I don't remember you being outspoken against us going in before the war, but I am not sure when you started posting here.

Actually, I argued strenuously that entering the war was precipitous (KLP will remember that one) at best and ill considered. I even argued at the time that he selectively read the tea leaves. Odd that you don't remember that. There were so few of us and it caused a lot of heat.

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To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (148642)11/24/2005 7:39:52 PM
From: Lane3
   of 756183
 
After I posted and after the edit window closed, it occurred to me that part of our disconnect may be that the piece I posed was from my oldies but goodies collection. It was written about the time that the war started nearly three years ago. At that time the current complaints about who saw what intelligence and who lied were not factors. You may be assessing it in the context of current events.

You can suppose all you like the neocons read too much into the evidence because of their subconscious views or whatever, but you won't persuade me until you find some evidence.

What evidence could there be? We can't possibly find clues that they were distorting their input. If they were, in fact, doing that, they probably didn't/or don't know it themselves so how can we find evidence of it.

The only evidence I have is that the decision to proceed was made very early. You spoke earlier today of a "14 month runup to the war" where they were working out the details but the decision go decision had been all but made. That was easy to recognize between the lines.

During that runup, everything I heard lead me to judge that the war wasn't warranted. Meanwhile they firmed up their commitment to the war. I explain that by judging that they read things differently from how I read them due to our disparate predispositions. That explanation makes a lot of sense to me. The only alternative explanations I could come up with are much less flattering to them than the one I have chosen. You would maybe prefer that I and others think Bush lied? <g>

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To: LindyBill who wrote (148622)11/24/2005 7:41:04 PM
From: D. Long
   of 756183
 
I just remembered that you posted about wanting to buy an X-Box

Must be thinking of someone else - I'm not a console fan. There are a select few PC games that I enjoy playing though, mostly strategy games. I do like Quake and Half Life, too.

Derek

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