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To: ChinuSFO who wrote (3327)1/15/2004 3:30:16 PM
From: lorne
   of 3959
 
Chinu. You said...." Lorne and chuck, let us not make an arse of ourselves anymore."....

And just what exactly did I say that would make you say something so vicious....when you say " let us not " you include yourself? Well I suppose you do qualify as well....LOL

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To: GUSTAVE JAEGER who wrote (3317)1/15/2004 6:26:51 PM
From: Hawkmoon
   of 3959
 
Gustave... spare me the military history lesson... From what I've seen of your grasp of the topic, I wouldn't expect that you have anything to teach me (at least nothing I could find credible)..

Hitler suffered his greatest military setback of the war in the summer of 1944.

1944 is NOT 1943, Gustave... And you don't need to tutor me about the destruction of Army Group Center, either..

You simply stated that Nazi Germany was facing a Bolshevik revolution in 1943 (not 1944, not 1945).. An internal revolution, and not an external invasion...

And the fact that all throughout 1944 and 1945, while Soviet forces were pressing towards the German border from east and south, and Nazi allies were switching sides (Rumania, Bulgaria, and Hungary), NO SUCH REVOLUTION EVER OCCURRED.

What you fail to understand Gustave is that the Germans fought the War in Russia giving no quarter, and asking none in return. The German people KNEW what was coming towards them and the inevitable retaliation they faced for their brutality towards the "sub-human slavs"..

Consequently, they fought even harder (when they couldn't manage to flee to the West), and sometimes in a fanatical manner... For they knew they were fighting for the very survival of the German state, the German people, and the German identity.

Hawk

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To: lorne who wrote (3328)1/15/2004 8:05:34 PM
From: ChinuSFO
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Yes, lorne I do qualify as well when we say let us not make and arse of ourselves. I have my differences with Ray Duray but we don't head butt and I do not tell him to leave the country. Neither does he do so to me or hurt any religious feelings. And I have blown my top many times here and on other threads. But not to the extent so as to ban anyone as long as they do not preach the violent overthrow of anyone.

I think, we need to have a nice and hard healthy discussion.

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To: rrufff who wrote (3323)1/15/2004 10:23:44 PM
From: ChinuSFO
   of 3959
 
...the religious issues probably will have a larger bearing in Europe over the next decade than in the US.

I don't think so judging from the questions being asked of Howard Dean about his religion, talking about religion when he campaigns in the South etc.

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To: Chas. who wrote (3324)1/15/2004 11:12:34 PM
From: ChinuSFO
   of 3959
 
Subject 54583

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To: ChinuSFO who wrote (3331)1/15/2004 11:29:35 PM
From: rrufff
   of 3959
 
I disagree. Getting demographic information from reporter's questions is not much better than reading the National Enquirer to learn the news.

Reporters are now more gossip and scandal mongers than seekers of facts. I don't think Dean's religious views will affect more than 1 % of the voters.

So long as one is not extreme in his views, religion is not an issue. Lieberman is on the fringe here as I'm not sure that the US is ready for a Jewish president quite frankly. This is no different than most countries. The US may even be a little closer to totally looking past this point thanks to Al Gore.

I don't think a strict bible toting and touting Christian fundamentalist would win an election.

So - my point - in the US, so long as religion is not dominating in one's public life, it shouldn't make a difference.

The post to which you responded basically was arguing that France and other European nations have a rapidly expanding Muslim community, one that seems to take much of its direction from extreme elements. This will create issues to which Europeans are only beginning to awake.

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To: rrufff who wrote (3333)1/15/2004 11:44:55 PM
From: ChinuSFO
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France and other European nations have a rapidly expanding Muslim community, one that seems to take much of its direction from extreme elements.

The expanding Muslim community, whether in Europe or in the US "does not repeat not take much of its direction from extreme elements." I am presuming that the extreme elements you refer to are the Osama types. Now regarding the increasing display of headgear is more of a display of orthodoxy and not extremism.

What the Muslims are doing with respect to clothes etc. is the same that the Jews do in New York with regard to their clothing including the skull cap etc. Or for that matter the Sikhs with their turbans.

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To: ChinuSFO who wrote (3334)1/15/2004 11:55:56 PM
From: rrufff
   of 3959
 
The numbers and influence of the extreme Jews in NY are miniscule and limited to those neighborhoods. They have no influence on life in general.

It's not the clothes and head covering in France or elsewhere. That's just a symptom. The targeting of Jews, the desecration of cemetaries, the virulent anti-Americansism, all propagated by extreme Muslim fundamentalists. It's only beginning....

It's not the clothes that are the issue, it's the teaching of hatred, the fostering of hatred, the furthering of hatred. That's where the Muslim extremists moving into France are different from the other examples, including the Sikhs, that you mention.

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To: Hawkmoon who wrote (3329)1/16/2004 3:51:41 AM
From: GUSTAVE JAEGER
   of 3959
 
Re: 1944 is NOT 1943, Gustave...

1943 was indeed a pivotal year, wasn't it? Judge by yourself:

July 25 [1943]- Mussolini meets with King Victor Emmanuelle. The King expresses to Mussolini that Italy no longer wants war and that he is the most hated man in Italy. Caught off guard, Mussolini responds with an offer of resignation which is accepted by the King. The King then offers Mussolini an armed escort which he accepts. Mussolini did not know that this was actually an arrest. Pietro Badoglio is soon proclaimed the new Prime Minister.

After news of Mussolini's arrest, many fellow Fascist leaders flee Rome. Italians and Germans alike remain silent as the new Badoglio government proclaims that the war will continue. Even with this proclamation, many Italians begin to cheer the ousting of Mussolini. Hundreds of people are ordered shot as Badoglio's government attempts to gain order.

SPAIN and PORTUGAL

Badoglio soon begins to try and find a way out of the war without Germany knowing. He begins secretive talks with the Allies in the Vatican. General Guiseppe Castellano secretly meets with Allies in Spain and Portugal. The new Italian government offers to assist in the war against Germany, but need Allied reinforcements in Rome before the declaration of war against Germany is delivered. The Allies feel uncomfortable with this offer, because the nature of war calls for a unconditional surrender of the enemy before any real negotiations could be accomplished. To show Italy's good faith, Castellano offers the Allies the German troop placements in Italy along with strengths and weaknesses of key areas.
[...]

comandosupremo.com

As you can see, the tide of events was turning against the Nazi regime... and the Soviets still had their Red Orchestra spy-network:

Long recognized as one of the most successful (and ruthless) spy networks in history, the Red Orchestra was a group of Soviet cells that operated throughout Germany and occupied Europe until late 1943. The Germans knew of its existence as early as 1941. Yet, it was only after two years of dogged detective work, lucky breaks, interrogation, and betrayals that they were able to silence the Red Orchestra for good. By that time the damage had been done and the Third Reich was facing extinction. Now, The Red Orchestra offers readers a unique opportunity to learn the complete story of Russia's hidden war against Nazi Germany. Vividly recreating a shadowy world of intrigue and espionage in war-torn Europe, The Red Orchestra introduces all the major players and describes spectacular feats of espionage performed right under the Germans' noses.

From Kirkus Reviews

Perhaps the fullest account yet to have appeared of the extraordinary network of Soviet spies in the Second World War known as Die Rote Kapelle--the Red Orchestra. Tarrant, a military advisor and naval historian, clarifies a good deal of the confusion that has existed about the three sectors in which the Orchestra operated: the network in France, Belgium, and Holland; the Berlin network; and the most remarkable of all, the group that operated out of Switzerland, the so-called Lucy Ring, whose sources included Lieut. General Fritz Theile, second- in-command of the German High Command's communications branch, and Baron Colonel Rudolf von Gersdorff, who was eventually to become Chief of Intelligence in one of the army groups on the Eastern front. The first two networks reported extraordinarily sensitive information from key areas of the German bureaucracy, but nothing compared to the work of the Lucy Ring, which gave Stalin the very date of the German attack on Russia, its objectives, and its strength. For reasons that still puzzle historians, Stalin refused to believe this information, but the Russians did not make this mistake a second time. The information that came from the headquarters of the German High Command enabled the Russians to surround the German Sixth Army at Stalingrad and to predict precisely the direction and strength of the German attack in the great tank battle of Kursk. Lucy's sources, writes Tarrant, ``were to cost the Germans the war on the Eastern Front.''

Most of the German officers were executed for their involvement in the 1944 Bomb Plot against Hitler, and the Swiss closed down the Lucy Ring, but by that time the fate of the Nazis was sealed. Using mostly secondary sources, but economically and vividly, Tarrant traces the rise and achievements of one of the most successful spy rings in history and the grim fate (imprisonment, torture, and execution) of some of its operatives. -- Copyright ©1996, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved.

amazon.com

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To: ChinuSFO who wrote (3319)1/16/2004 4:24:42 AM
From: GUSTAVE JAEGER
   of 3959
 
Re: The American voting public was right in 2000 when they voted in the majority for Gore instead of for Bush. But the thugs and bandits stole the elections.

I'd rather say, "they stole the presidency".... I believe that G.W. Bush was keen on pulling off a Palestinian state UP TO SEPTEMBER 11, 2001. The terrorist attacks disrupted the whole process. Unlike many conspiracy theorists, I don't accuse Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld of having masterminded the 911 outrage (although Cheney might have been in the know of some hijack cointelpro scheme....)

I still believe that the Russians and the Israelis --together with double agents within US intelligence-- pulled a fast one against the Bush presidency --they hijacked the presidency and the US foreign policy!

As for the Democrats being a better option, no, I don't trust the Dems --I think the Republicans are the best bet to settle the Mideast crisis... although, I must admit, I underestimated the Republicans' reliance on the Moral Majority and Christian Conservatives... But I nonetheless favor the Republicans over the Dems as far as the Mideast is concerned. After all, it was Bill Clinton who claimed that he was ready to "give his life for Israel"... Clinton had EIGHT years to sort out the Mideast crisis and he got nowhere... The Dems are master artists when it comes to get friends and foes together, organize roundtables, endless meetings like the Oslo meeting, etc. but they basically play for time... They're not honest brokers, they're honest meddlers....

Gus

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