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To: ChinuSFO who wrote (3319)1/15/2004 12:22:20 PM
From: lorne
   of 3959
Chinu. ahhh, at last. A glimmer of understanding is getting through to you. Like I have been saying to you for a couple of years now...It's all about religion....

IMO. Different religions have hated each other since the beginning of time and in some places these hatreds are still God is better than your God...Middle East IMO. is most backwards in this regard. When and if they ever come out of the dark ages things will change for the better in ME. IMO islam is in turmoil within their own many different sects within islam and all of them appear to hate each other and their hatreds are spilling over into the civilized world.

I see you have brought up the religious angle again course I'm sure you will still place the blame on the wrong religion. :-)

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To: lorne who wrote (3321)1/15/2004 12:24:26 PM
From: rrufff
   of 3959
You are absolutely correct. For someone to think that Swaggert or the extreme religious fundamentalists represents America, really has no clue. They catch the headlines because they are so whacky.

The US is very centrist, that's why the last election was so screwed up.

There may not be as many nutcases in Belgium but our sprout makes up for it. As they are learning in France, and as you point out, the religious issues probably will have a larger bearing in Europe over the next decade than in the US.

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To: ChinuSFO who wrote (3320)1/15/2004 1:15:40 PM
From: Chas.
   of 3959
chinu...I don't care to argue with dolts like you anymore, as far as I am concerned life is a matter of "Survival of the Fittest" as it applies to all areas of life, job, social, and the other facets of life here in the USA, I strive to help, understand and perpetuate the life style that I have been so fortunate to have experienced here in my little part of America....key word here is Perpetuate....for the dolts that cannot grasp the significance of this I say get the fuckkkkkk out of America and peddle your crap somewhere else.


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To: GUSTAVE JAEGER who wrote (3316)1/15/2004 1:25:56 PM
From: Chas.
   of 3959
you should be more respectful of America and its peoples, we are the ones that bailed your ass's out of WWII and why you are not wearing a swastika armband today, ingrate.

then we went on to keep Mr Stalin from pulling one of his many purges on your ingrate ass.....

try saying every morning when you get up with your obvious hangover....."there but for the grace of America go I".....

you know all the words and say them well but you don't really have a clue how it works..........


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To: Chas. who wrote (3325)1/15/2004 2:42:56 PM
From: lorne
   of 3959
Chuck. IMO here are the kind of people that want to destroy our lifestyle. These people should not even be in the USA or any other free country. However democracy grants these IMO scum certain rights which they use in any way they can to destroy the lifestyle we enjoy.

Hub Islamic leader’s radical links run deep
By Jonathan Wells and Kevin Wisniewski/SPECIAL REPORT
Wednesday, January 14, 2004

The leader of the Islamic group preparing to build a major new mosque in Boston has deeper involvement with organizations and individuals suspected of funding terrorism than previously disclosed, the Herald has learned.

Records obtained by the newspaper reveal the chairman of the local Islamic Society of Boston, Osama M. Kandil, is one of three directors of Taibah International Aid Association, a Muslim charity long suspected by investigators in the United States and Europe of funding international terrorism.

In addition, records show that over the past 15 years Kandil has surrounded himself with an array of individuals investigators say are working within the United States to support militant Islam's worldwide agenda.

Kandil's ties to suspect organizations and individuals raise new questions about the city of Boston's decision to grant the Islamic Society of Boston approvals to build a $22 million mosque and cultural center in Roxbury which would be the largest of its kind in the Northeast.

So far, Mayor Thomas M. Menino has shrugged off the connections some of the leaders of the mosque have to Islamic extremism.

The Herald reported in October that Kandil and one of his former companies had been identified by the federal government as being part of the ``Safa Group,'' a complex network of U.S.-based corporations, charities and individuals currently under investigation for backing Islamic terrorist groups.

Both Kandil and the Islamic Society of Boston claimed the naming of Kandil in a government affidavit as a member of the Safa Group was a mistake and that he was only included because he happened to rent a home in Herndon, Va., owned by a key member of the Safa Group. The government coined the name Safa Group because several individuals who have been under investigation live on Safa Court and Safa Road in Herndon.

``I was never part of that group,'' Kandil said. ``I was never involved in their activities.''

The Islamic Society of Boston echoed that claim: ``There is absolutely no other connection between Dr. Kandil and any other organization that supports terrorism.''

Charity linked to terror

However, findings by the Herald in the past two months are starkly at odds with those claims. The most striking fact is Kandil's leadership position with Taibah International Aid Association, which has been the subject of terrorism investigations dating back to 1997.

In 2002, Taibah was identified by investigators in Bosnia as ``under the direction of'' the Muslim Brotherhood, one of the oldest Islamic terrorist groups in the world.

Both U.S. and Bosnian officials determined Taibah worked hand-in-hand in Bosnia with another Islamic charity, Global Relief Foundation in Bridgeview, Ill., which the United States named as a ``Specially Designated Global Terrorist'' in October 2002.

According to the U.S. Treasury Department, Global Relief's Arabic newsletter regularly sought donations for armed Islamic jihad, including one solicitation for money ``for equipping the raiders, for the purchase of ammunition and food, and for their (the Mujahideen's) transportation so that they can raise God the Almighty's word.''

The relationship between Taibah and Global Relief was so close, Taibah stepped in to represent Global Relief's interests in Bosnia after the government there shut down Global Relief for supporting terrorists, FBI records show.

In 2001, one month after the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States, Taibah's Bosnia office was raided in connection with a terrorist plot to blow up the U.S. Embassy there. It turned out at least one of the six men arrested in the scheme worked for Taibah.

At present, Taibah is targeted in two related federal cases as involved in financing terrorist groups. In one, Taibah is named as a member of the Safa Group of companies and charities, which the government says has financed terrorist groups including Hamas and al-Qaeda.

In the other, investigators found Taibah served as an agent for another non-profit group, the Success Foundation in Falls Church, Va, which the government alleges has funneled money to the terrorist group Hamas.

In 1997, Taibah's dealings with the Saudi charity International Relief Organization were scrutinized as part of a federal terrorism, money laundering and fraud probe in Illinois and Virginia, according to testimony before Congress by Matthew Epstein of the Investigative Project. Both charities operated out of the same address at 360 South Washington St. in Falls Church, Va.

Records show the International Relief Organization, which is the U.S.-based arm of the International Islamic Relief Organization, or IIRO, transferred thousands of dollars to another charity called Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, which the U.S. government shut down in December 2001 for aiding terrorists.

According to terrorism investigator Rita Katz, director of the Site Institute, the evidence is clear that Taibah is not a typical charity.

``Although it purports to be a humanitarian organization, the Taibah International Aid Association is tied to al-Qaeda front groups,'' Katz said.

Back to Egypt

Kandil could not be reached for comment this week and a spokesman for the Islamic Society of Boston declined comment. According to his former neighbors in Herndon, Va., Kandil moved back to Egypt in 2002 after federal agents raided the Safa Group's offices in March of that year. When the Herald interviewed Kandil in October, he spoke by telephone from a hotel in Germany.

Until he left the country, Kandil lived in a $720,000 single-family home on Millwood Pond Drive in Herndon, one-half mile from the cluster of homes owned by members of the Safa Group, which government agents also raided in March 2002 as part of their terrorism financing probe.

Kandil's involvement in Taibah, revealed in records on file with the Virginia Secretary of State, was first discovered by the National Security News Service, a nonprofit news organization in Washington, D.C. Those records indicate the charity was incorported in November 1991 by four wealthy Saudis.

One of them was Abdullah bin Laden, a nephew of al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, who has been investigated by the FBI for his role as head of the World Association of Muslim Youth. Before Abdullah bin Laden abandoned WAMY's offices in Virginia soon after Sept. 11, the group had been investigated by the FBI for suspected support of terrorist groups.

Another founding director of Taibah was Saudi lawyer Basim A. Alim. Alim graduated from Harvard Law School in 1993 and at one point listed as his address the same Cambridge apartment as one of the current directors of the Islamic Society of Boston, Walid Fitaihi.

Alim, who now practices law in Saudi Arabia, has been retained to coordinate the defense of the major Saudi charities named in the Sept. 11 victims' civil suit.

Taibah filed articles of amendment in 1999 which named Kandil as one of its four directors. In its last two annual reports, the charity lists Kandil as one of three directors.

On the current three-man board of directors with Kandil is Abdurahman M. Alamoudi, a well-known Muslim activist in the United States who, records show, founded the Islamic Society of Boston in 1982.

Alamoudi's career took an unexpected turn this fall when he was arrested and indicted by the U.S. government for ferrying large sums of cash out of Libya, a designated terrorist nation.

In court papers, federal agents portray Alamoudi as a significant financier of international Islamic terrorism who used several related non-profit corporations, including Taibah, to aid the cause of armed Jihad.

Before his arrest, Alamoudi drew attention for his public statements in support of the terrorist groups Hamas and Hezbollah, but also enjoyed access to high levels of the U.S. government where he was received as an influential spokesman for American Muslims.

The close working relationship between Kandil and Alamoudi, evidenced by their roles with Taibah, calls into question Kandil's recent effort to distance both himself and the Islamic Society of Boston from Alamoudi.

In an interview with the Herald in October, Kandil chided the newspaper for mentioning Alamoudi's role as the founder of the Islamic Society of Boston and publishing Alamoudi's controversial statements, which included one in which he said he approved of the 1994 terrorist bombing of a Jewish Community Center in Buenos Aires, Argentina, which killed 85 people and injured more than 200.

``It is inappropriate to talk about people who spent a year or two in Boston and then made statements 15 years later,'' said Kandil, who did not mention his ongoing dealings with Alamoudi at Taibah.

Other associates

One of Taibah's former directors is Samir I. Salah, the founder and president of the Dar al-Hijra, a mosque in Falls Church, Va, which has been both a platform for radical Islamic rhetoric and a magnet for militants.

Two of the Sept. 11 hijackers, Nawaf Alhazmi and Hani Hanjour, attended Dar al-Hijra in March 2001 prior to commandeering United Flight 77 and crashing it into the Pentagon.

The Egyptian-born Salah, who served in 1999 and 2000 with Kandil on Taibah's board, also helped set up and manage the Bahamas branch of the Muslim Brotherhood's al-Taqwa Group, a network of banks and shell corporations which has been designated as a terrorist organization by the U.S. government.

The Herald reported in October that Kandil was a founding director of a controversial Islamic group in the United States called the Muslim Arab Youth Association. Kandil claimed MAYA was a moderate group, but for many years the organization's conferences served as a platform and gathering place for militant Islamists.

Another Kandil business partner, Nabil Sadoun, was also a founding director of MAYA. Sadoun and Kandil were directors of American Products International, Inc., a now defunct for-profit company named by federal investigators as part of the Safa Group.

Sadoun was also a founder and director of United Association for Studies and Research in Springfield, Va, which was identified as ``the political command of Hamas in the United States'' by one of the terrorist group's operatives.

In Florida, Kandil and Sadoun were involved in the Islamic Center of Northwest Florida, Inc., which operated a mosque in Panama City, records show.

A central figure at that mosque was an Egyptian-born doctor and Islamic lecturer named Ahmed Elkadi, who also had other business interests with Kandil.

According to Katz, the terrorism investigator, Elkadi came to the United States in the early 1980s with the purpose of establishing an American branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Elkadi was also tied to the Muslim Brotherhood by Soliman Biheiri, a financier convicted last year of violating U.S. immigration laws.

When the Herald spoke with Kandil in October, he denied associating with Muslim extremists or any involvement with organizations which support terrorist activities.

But when the Herald asked him for his views on suicide bombings, he declined comment.

``I'd rather not discuss this issue,'' Kandil said. ``I'd rather focus on the ISB (mosque) project. I'm the chairman of the board of trustees and the board has never discussed this subject. I don't want to talk about my personal opinion because I don't want it to be confused with the board's opinion.''

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To: lorne who wrote (3326)1/15/2004 3:05:43 PM
From: ChinuSFO
   of 3959
Lorne and chuck, let us not make an arse of ourselves anymore. We have to elect Presidents who like past Presidents can lift the image of the US. Yes, the US helped the European nations during WWII. But that is your Dad's and Granddad's efforts. What has been your effort, the effort of our generation. As this article says this is a TV generation. Unable to engage in a good healthy discussion any more because they do not know anything. And to make matters worse, they hallucinate into thinking that this country belongs to them only. Wrong.

When implanting democracy consult Socrates and Survivor


WITH the governments of both the US and its feisty satellite state, Australia, going to the polls this year, the time has come to ask a few tough questions about democracy.

After all, infecting the world with the all-American values of fair and free elections is now at the heart of US foreign policy (eliminating weapons of mass destruction being so March and April 2003).
But, after all these years as a political pin-up model, has democracy let itself go?

And if it's really as contagious as George Bush says it is, should we try to stop that naughty axis of Arabs working on a vaccine?

Democracy was invented in ancient Athens and the expression comes from the Greek words demos meaning people, and krakos meaning power, as well as last minute allegations of sexual impropriety – a cornerstone of all great elections.

Many aspects of the ancient Greeks' approach to government still survive.

Consider the fact that voting was known to have taken place in the amphitheatres used for the gladiatorial slaughter of animals and slaves.

These days, the presentation of human misery for entertainment is only permitted within the safety of reality television, but politicians still find it best to conduct their crusades in an atmosphere of fear and loathing.

Deputy Sheriff John Howard's 2001 campaign, for example, was run almost exclusively on a "we're about to be invaded by desperate boatpeople armed with starving children and unAustralian headgear" platform. With any luck, another leaky boatload of Afghans will show up round October and he can use it as an excuse to excise some of those pesky marginal seats from the election zone.

Viva el leader!

Also interesting was the ancient Greeks' interpretation of who constituted a "person" when it came to voting. In Athens you had to be a man, while, in many of the Greek city-states, you had to be a man who also owned land or a house.

Of course lucky old white women have now been allowed to vote for 110 years out of democracy's 2604-year history, but there's no doubt that being a rich bloke still helps if you're planning to get into the business.

According to the latest figures, only 26.5 per cent of Australian federal politicians are women, with that 0.5 of a chick doing things especially tough.

Not surprisingly, democracy has had its fair share of critics - one of the earliest and most famous being the Athenian philosopher Socrates.

Socrates questioned the value of a political system that held the opinions of all citizens as being of equal value, believing that people had a tendency to latch thoughtlessly on to popular views instead of fleshing out positions for themselves.

As a result of this intellectual laziness, many rendered themselves too stupid to vote.


A couple of years back, American voters accidentally elected a man who believed police officers deserved to be killed and who supported wife abuse.

When asked how he'd made it to the New Hampshire House of Representatives without his extremist views becoming known, the Honorable Tom Alciere said: "Nobody asked."

Perhaps this explains how Arnold Schwarzenegger ended up at the helm of the Californian economy and why the US itself is now led by a man who has gone on the record complaining that "down in Washington they're playing with social security like it's some kind of government program".

Not that the next generation of US voters looks any better qualified to elect its leaders.

According to a recent worldwide survey, only 17 per cent of young Americans are able to find Afghanistan on a map, and only one in seven are able to pinpoint Iraq or Iran on a map of the Middle East and Asia.

Intriguingly enough, a comparatively whopping 34 per cent know that the island used for the fourth instalment of the television show Survivor is located in the South Pacific.

Clearly the most effective democratic model to import to rogue states is one in which elections are incorporated into some sort of lifestyle program, preferably hosted by a large breasted or amply pectoralled American celebrity.

It's enough to drive modern-day Socrates to hemlock.

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To: ChinuSFO who wrote (3327)1/15/2004 3:30:16 PM
From: lorne
   of 3959
Chinu. You said...." Lorne and chuck, let us not make an arse of ourselves anymore."....

And just what exactly did I say that would make you say something so vicious....when you say " let us not " you include yourself? Well I suppose you do qualify as well....LOL

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To: GUSTAVE JAEGER who wrote (3317)1/15/2004 6:26:51 PM
From: Hawkmoon
   of 3959
Gustave... spare me the military history lesson... From what I've seen of your grasp of the topic, I wouldn't expect that you have anything to teach me (at least nothing I could find credible)..

Hitler suffered his greatest military setback of the war in the summer of 1944.

1944 is NOT 1943, Gustave... And you don't need to tutor me about the destruction of Army Group Center, either..

You simply stated that Nazi Germany was facing a Bolshevik revolution in 1943 (not 1944, not 1945).. An internal revolution, and not an external invasion...

And the fact that all throughout 1944 and 1945, while Soviet forces were pressing towards the German border from east and south, and Nazi allies were switching sides (Rumania, Bulgaria, and Hungary), NO SUCH REVOLUTION EVER OCCURRED.

What you fail to understand Gustave is that the Germans fought the War in Russia giving no quarter, and asking none in return. The German people KNEW what was coming towards them and the inevitable retaliation they faced for their brutality towards the "sub-human slavs"..

Consequently, they fought even harder (when they couldn't manage to flee to the West), and sometimes in a fanatical manner... For they knew they were fighting for the very survival of the German state, the German people, and the German identity.


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To: lorne who wrote (3328)1/15/2004 8:05:34 PM
From: ChinuSFO
   of 3959
Yes, lorne I do qualify as well when we say let us not make and arse of ourselves. I have my differences with Ray Duray but we don't head butt and I do not tell him to leave the country. Neither does he do so to me or hurt any religious feelings. And I have blown my top many times here and on other threads. But not to the extent so as to ban anyone as long as they do not preach the violent overthrow of anyone.

I think, we need to have a nice and hard healthy discussion.

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To: rrufff who wrote (3323)1/15/2004 10:23:44 PM
From: ChinuSFO
   of 3959
...the religious issues probably will have a larger bearing in Europe over the next decade than in the US.

I don't think so judging from the questions being asked of Howard Dean about his religion, talking about religion when he campaigns in the South etc.

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