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To: lorne who wrote (1655)8/27/2002 5:48:58 AM
   of 3959
Here's yet another "good and truthful article" for you....

Straight from the horse's mouth:

Israel set on tragic path, says chief rabbi

Guardian interview will shock Jewish community

Jonathan Freedland
Tuesday August 27, 2002
The Guardian

Britain's chief rabbi, Jonathan Sacks, today delivers an unprecedentedly strong warning to Israel, arguing that the country is adopting a stance "incompatible" with the deepest ideals of Judaism, and that the current conflict with the Palestinians is "corrupting" Israeli culture.

In a move that will send shockwaves through Israel and the world Jewish community, Professor Sacks departs from his usual policy of offering only public endorsement of Israel, and broad support for moves toward peace, by giving an explicit verdict on the effect that 35 years of military occupation and decades of conflict are having on Israel and the Jewish people.

"I regard the current situation as nothing less than tragic," he tells the Guardian in an exclusive interview. "It is forcing Israel into postures that are incompatible in the long run with our deepest ideals."

He goes on to speak of being "profoundly shocked" at the recent reports of smiling Israeli servicemen posing for a photograph with the corpse of a slain Palestinian. "There is no question that this kind of prolonged conflict, together with the absence of hope, generates hatreds and insensitivities that in the long run are corrupting to a culture."

He also admits that in 1967 he was "convinced that Israel had to give back all the [newly-gained] land for the sake of peace" - and he does not renounce that view now.

Prof Sacks is at pains to underline his continuing, avowed support for the Jewish state - citing repeated efforts by Israel to make peace, and the Palestinians' failure to take the same "cognitive leap" towards compromise. Nevertheless, and despite the careful phrasing of his remarks, referring twice to dangers "in the long run", many in rightwing Jewish and Israeli circles will be angered by his comments.

"The nature of these comments are quite unlike anything he has ever said before," one senior Jewish community figure said yesterday. "The right will be surprised and angry." Liberal and dovish Jews are bound to welcome his statements.

Since becoming chief rabbi in 1991 of Britain's Orthodox Jews, and the de facto leader of the country's 280,000-strong Jewish community, Prof Sacks has successfully avoided any overtly political pronouncements on Israel.

He has preferred to be a public defender of the country and to offer broad support for the pursuit of peace as a divinely-sanctioned endeavour. At the time of the Oslo peace process, he was in regular correspondence with the Israeli prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin.

But he has steered clear of opining on the moral status of Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, in sharp contrast with his predecessor, Immanuel Jakobovits, who sparked outrage more than a decade ago when he condemned Israel for "lording it over" the Palestinians.

Community insiders predicted that Prof Sacks' latest comments could prompt a similar wave of fury. Much of Anglo-Jewish opinion has followed the Israeli shift to the right since the outbreak of the current intifada two years ago.

The chief rabbi is bound to cause further controversy by calling for dialogue with the most extremist representatives of radical Islam.

In today's interview, timed for the publication of his new book, The Dignity of Difference, which is serialised in the Guardian this week, Prof Sacks says he would even sit down with Sheikh Abu Hamza - the fundamentalist north London cleric who admits to sharing the views of Osama bin Laden and who describes himself as a Taliban sympathiser. Yesterday the sheikh was quoted saying it was "OK" to kill non-Muslims, and equating Jews with Satan.

Nevertheless, Prof Sacks says a meeting between the two is "a thought worth pursuing. I absolutely don't rule it out."

The chief rabbi, 54, also reveals that he has already met one of Iran's highest-ranking clerics, Ayatollah Abdullah Javadi-Amoli. At a meeting brokered by the Foreign Office and never disclosed until now, the two met for secret talks during a UN conference of religious leaders in New York in 2000.

"We established within minutes a common language", says Prof Sacks, the "particular language believers share."

The chief rabbi's new book is subtitled "How to avoid the clash of civilisations", and aims to offer the world a roadmap away from disaster. He calls on orthodox faiths in particular to realise that difference is not a problem to be managed, but an "essential" part of creation itself.

I can't wait for Judeofascist swines to brand rabbi Sacks as a "self-hating Jew"... LOL!

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To: GUSTAVE JAEGER who wrote (1670)8/27/2002 8:04:09 AM
From: lorne
   of 3959
Gus. You said....." Here's yet another "good and truthful article" for you....
Straight from the horse's mouth:

Israel set on tragic path, says chief rabbi ".....

There a crazies in every culture, heck look at the USA and al gore. :o)

This guys words sound more like they are from the other end of the horse.

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To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (1668)8/27/2002 9:31:16 AM
From: goldsnow
   of 3959
Burning of New Testament>>>

Can you site any historic instance where that (Burning of Books-Koran or New Testament by Jews was actually done)

In the 13th century the new forces of rationalism had made their
appearance in Western Europe as well as an upsurge of sectarian
movements The Church also directed its attention to Jews as
potential subversive elements. One outcome of the repression of
rationalistic tendencies was the burning of Maimonides' "Guide of
the Perplexed" at Montpellier, Southern France, in 1233.


Maimonides, a rationalist, and known as Rabbi Moses ben Maimon (the
"Rambam"), the SECOND Moses and one of Judaism's greatest
philosophers was a threat to the Church. He was a Jewish physician
who was well versed in Greek philosophy, spent much of his life
among Muslims and he greatly influenced Christian Europe which is
why his books were burned.

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To: goldsnow who wrote (1672)8/27/2002 9:36:22 AM
From: Emile Vidrine
   of 3959

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To: goldsnow who wrote (1672)8/27/2002 9:38:04 AM
From: Emile Vidrine
   of 3959
Burning the New Testament by Orthodox Jews in Israel
Yediot Ahronot, March 30, 1997

By Yehuda Koren
Translation and notes by Israel Shahak

Every time Paul Smilansky gets into his car he checks whether he is being followed. He also is careful to check who is standing at the door before he opens it. Smilansky, 37, a building site manager, is a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses community in Lydda. Orthodox Jews consider them to be an idolatrous cult, but the members themselves reject this definition.

Two weeks ago on Saturday night hundreds of Orthodox Jews broke into the community's place of worship, totally demolished it and stole the public address equipment. The books and pamphlets they found there were piled in the yard and a large bonfire was lit. While the books were burning, Orthodox Jews danced around the bonfire. Alvin Neuport, a veteran member of the Jehovah's Witnesses community, said "Masses of Orthodox Jews attacked our building and broke into it using axes. They danced and sang around the bonfire, into which they threw even our Bibles.1 Although the destruction and arson took place on the main street, a short distance from the home of Member of the Knesset Maxim Levy, who is also Lydda's mayor,2 and hundreds of people danced around the bonfire, no one stopped them. Only when the owner of an adjacent shop feared that the fire would spread, were the police called in."

The violent attack on the house of worship was not the first time that Jehovah's Witnesses have been attacked by Orthodox Jews. Paul Smilansky told about the daily public curses, spitting and fist fights. "They throw stones all the time. Once they hit my father-in-law on the head, causing a concussion," Smilansky said.

Ten Jehovah's Witnesses communities currently exist in Israel. They have 750 members, not including children. Most of them are Jews, a minority Christians. About one-quarter of the members are from the former Soviet Union. There are 50 members in the Lydda community, which was established 30 years ago. Previously the meetings were held in members' homes, but in 1989 the community purchased a shop in the town commercial center.

"Because of the constant attacks by the Orthodox, we built a high fence, installed a fortified door and a closed-circuit TV that shows what is going on outside," Smilansky said. "Early this month, at the end of a gathering when we were starting to go home, we were met by a rain of building blocks and large stones. My wife and children managed to reach the car, but other members locked themselves inside. The small children were screaming with fear. We summoned the police and then went outside, but the hail of stones did not cease, even under the eyes of the police."

Orthodox Jews "throw stones all the time."

The present tension seemingly erupted because four months ago many Jews of Lydda received material by mail from Messianic Jews. "Although there is no connection between us and the Messianic Jews," Alvin Neuport said, "we bore the brunt of the Orthodox anger, apparently because we live here and the Messianics do not.

"They [Orthodox Jews] poured glue into the locks so we could not get into the hall," Neuport said. "They tried several times to set the place on fire and burned the air conditioner motors."

Neuport especially blames the Habad youth. "They work against us like a military organization with intelligence units that go around and write down our license plate numbers and contact us and threaten to set the cars on fire if we will not abandon our faith."

Following the burning of the books and the destruction of the prayer hall, three Habad rabbis were summoned for questioning by the police. Among them was Rabbi Yakov Glauberman, the Habad Youth leader, who denied any connection to the affair.

"We are Judaism with a smile and pleasant ways," he said. "True, they are the enemies of the Jews, exploiting the fact that during the day the men are at work. They knock on doors and entice our women to join them. They tear families apart and do not even have mercy on little children whose souls will perish in hell because of them."

Concerning the arson, Rabbi Glauberman said, "I happened to arrive at the place by chance. I do not know who attacked or broke things but I admit that I did see the bonfire and circle of dancers. We follow them constantly only to warn the Jews to beware of them, but I denounce all violence."

The public relations attack includes warnings and briefings. Children have been warned that "cult members" will kidnap them, bleed them to death3 or, alternatively, turn them into Christians. Women have been briefed on ways to withstand their many enticements and especially their offers to examine the mezzuzahs in their homes.

"They take off the mezzuzah," claims Habad, "remove the parchment, and when you aren't looking, erase the holy Name of God and write a cross instead. Then, every time you leave your home or return to it, you will commit the abomination of kissing the cross and not the holy words in the mezzuzah," the women were told.

Elisha Rogers, a Jehovah's Witnesses member, admits that he spends some hours of each week speaking with people in their homes. "In the Middle Ages Jews were falsely accused of drinking the blood of small children and now the Orthodox Jews are using the same lie against us," he said. "The story about the mezzuzah is also foolish: we are not Christians and to us the cross is a prohibited symbol of idolatry. We are a separate religion that is recognized as such around the world."

The Jehovah's Witnesses community members felt especially insulted by the graffiti words "death camp" sprayed on the walls of their prayer hall. "In World War II Hitler also sent us to the death camps," Rogers said.

The Jehovah's Witnesses have not suspended their activities, but they keep the location of their new meeting place secret. "If they return to the old place, we will not leave them alone," Rabbi Glauberman said. "We will continue fighting them until they leave the city and Israel."

Yossi Boker, the deputy commander of the Lydda police station, said, "The police have received many complaints about assaults, insults and provocations. However, since complaints against specific suspects could not be proved we were forced to close the cases. I summoned three rabbis in the city for a talk and I made it clear to them that we would react strongly if the harassments continued. We also asked the members of the community to notify us when they finished fixing the meeting place, so that we will be prepared and prevent the next attack."4

NOTES (by Prof. Israel Shahak):
1. This is strictly according to the Jewish religious law and is often done, also in Jerusalem, since the Bibles contain the New Testament which pious Jews should burn, if they can. In Jerusalem, where Orthodox violence is more difficult than in a small town like Lydda, Bibles which contain the New Testament are often collected and ceremoniously burnt on a bonfire in an Orthodox neighborhood. No rabbi, and few politicians, have said a word about this. Needless to say, Western media will not report such events, although the Hebrew press does.

2. David Levy's brother.

3. This libel, like much Habad Nazi-like persecution of small and weak sects, is an adaptation of a prevalent anti-Semitic libel, which claimed that Jews kidnap Christian children and bleed them to death. I am afraid than many Jews (and also non-Jews) who are ready to condemn anti-Semitic libel will refuse to relate to the Habad one, although they are exactly alike in their evil intent.

4. Jehovah's Witnesses are especially attacked by the Orthodox Jews for three reasons: they are small and weak, unprotected by the diplomats of any foreign state, and their beliefs prevent them from hitting back.

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To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (1674)8/27/2002 9:45:00 AM
From: Emile Vidrine
   of 3959
Jewish controlled media in America carefully avoided giving this important issue broad the broad coverage it deserved in a Christian nation.

If a Jewish grave is vandalized anywhere in the world, the Jewish media gives such an incident front page coverage for weeks.

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To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (1674)8/27/2002 10:11:10 AM
From: goldsnow
   of 3959
Emile, I know you are not trying to equate a Systematic Burning and Destruction of Religious books by Church with incidents like you have outlined? (even if true)

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To: Eashoa' M'sheekha who wrote (1478)8/27/2002 10:16:03 AM
From: Thomas M.
   of 3959
I don't see anything informative or helpful about Nadine's comments:

Sure, Israel got letters like this all the time. But October 1968 was less than a year after the Khartoum Conference, in which the Arab League spurned Israel's offer of the territories, saying No Peace. No Recognition. No Negotiations.

They had just offered all the land back and gotten a big fat NO. Khartoum was the high point of Arab intransigence. Who were the Israelis supposed to be flexible with, a brick wall? This letter was an effort to score points over the USSR, who were the only ones who had influence over the Arabs.

There was no Israeli offer of returning the conquered territories. And Nadine knows it. After the 1967 war, the Arabs wanted to settle a peace deal with Israel quickly. Israel refused. The Israeli intransigence led to Khartoum, not the other way around (as Nadine claims). And it is revealing that the countries which were attacked (the Arabs) are supposed to keep their heads bowed when facing the hostile aggressor (Israel). Was Czechoslovakia asked to show conciliation to Nazi Germany in 1938?

Message 17774686

Note that, at the time of Khartoum, Marshall Tito formulated a plan calling for Israeli withdrawal from the conquered territories, including full demilitarization and other security guarantees in these territories, and and "end ot the call for an Arab state of Palestine". Egypt and Jordan agreed, Israel rejected it.

The definitive text on the peace process between 1967 and 1973 is Finkelstein's "Image & Reality". But, you don't need to get into these nitty-gritty details. All you need to do is look at 1971, when Egypt offered Israel a full peace treaty, Israel recognized it as a valid offer, and Israel rejected it on the grounds that they were in a position of strength. In 1976, this offer was expanded to Syria, Egypt, the PLO, etc. Again, Israel rejected it (angrily). This has been on the table continuously for the past 3 decades, and it still is.

Your website doesn't mention either 1976 nor 1971. So, I would not consider it a useful resource.


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To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (1675)8/27/2002 10:23:12 AM
From: goldsnow
   of 3959
In History as Mystery, Parenti turns his critical eye towards the biases of historiography via politicians, popes, professors, text book authors and corporations, the mass media, and other class ceilings. He also examines the ascendancy and later hegemony of a social system: "Christianity", which Parenti adeptly argues, "supported secular and ecclesiastical autocracy [Paul, Augustine, and other Christian leaders urge servants and slaves to be dutifully obedient and lovingly faithful to their masters, "as unto Christ", and "we repeatedly encounter a ready acceptance of autocratic secular power and an eagerness to enlist it to hunt down heretics, free thinkers, reformers, and other purveyors of heterodoxy"], class oppression ["if early church fathers...championed a church of the indigent and oppressed, of slaves and penniless peasants, they gave remarkably little evidence of it...the established ecclesiastics usually sided with the princes against the peasants, showing little sympathy for the democratic rights of commoners"; "Rather than sharing the wealth, the upper clergy shared in the wealth"], slavery ["for centuries, the church was itself the largest slaveholder in Europe"], sexism ["male church leaders repeatedly proclaimed the inferior nature of women", piling on restrictions and burning "tens of thousands of women" for their various "transgressions"], and anti-Semitism [leading the way to the Inquisition, many unnamed pogroms, and "preparing the Holocaust", numerous Christian leaders demonized the Jews "for the better part of two thousand years [through] papal proclamations, church sermons, pastoral letters, hymns, council edicts, and the pronouncements of bishops and leading theologians". There are, unfortunately, many notable examples, such as "In 1239, Pope Gregory IX attempted to cleanse western Europe of Jewish books, especially the Talmud"]. Indeed, Christianity "had a severely regressive effect upon just about every area of learning" including "such fields as literature, philosophy, art, theater, science, medicine, anatomy, astronomy, mathematics, and commerce...The burning of books was part of the advent and imposition of Christianity" (chs. 2-3).

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To: goldsnow who wrote (1676)8/27/2002 10:47:39 AM
From: Emile Vidrine
   of 3959
"even if true"

Why is it so difficult for Talmudic Jews to ever admit wrongdoing? Because the Talmud teaches that it is permissible for Jews to mistreat and even murder non-Jews.
In the Talmudic Jewish mind there can be no wrongdoing against the "Goy" because they are sub-humans.

Documentation proving Jewish wrongdoing is irrelevant in the mind of a Talmudic Jew.

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