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To: goldsnow who wrote (1647)8/26/2002 3:02:30 PM
From: Emile Vidrine
   of 3959
 
"The teachings of Maimonides and the Talmud are central to modern rabbinic Judaism>>>
Martin Luther"

Sorry, but Luther's views are not central to Christianity. In fact, there arre not even central to Lutheranism--as ironic as that seems.

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To: hal jordan who wrote (1659)8/26/2002 3:08:26 PM
From: Emile Vidrine
   of 3959
 
There are many so-called "Christians" who are controlled by the Jewish media and Jewish money.

Christian Zionist are a different breed. They are theological accomplices to the evil of Talmudic Judaism and Zionism.

We were talking about Talmudic Jews and Orthodox Judaism, not non-Jewish supporters of Zionism.

Do you deny that the Talmud, Maimonides, The Toledoth Yeshu teaches hate and racism?

Do you deny that Zionist Israel is a nation founded on race and religion? Do you deny that Zionist Israel discriminates against all non-Jews?

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To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (1660)8/26/2002 3:13:15 PM
From: goldsnow
   of 3959
 
"The teachings of Maimonides and the Talmud are central to modern rabbinic Judaism>>>
Martin Luther>>>

Emile, Modern (In Luther's Expression) that was 15 century compared to 12'th century...Maimonides and his unusual Genius is Central Figure not just for all Religions, but mstly for Philosophy and Western Thought

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To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (1661)8/26/2002 3:21:34 PM
From: goldsnow
   of 3959
 
Moreh Nebukhim, or Guide for the Perplexed from 1190, attempted to reconcile Rabbinic Judaism with Aristotelian rationalism. This work dealt with the nature of God and creation, free will, good and evil. Guide for the Perplexed had strong impact also on the most important Christian philosophers in the following centuries

i-cias.com

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To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (1661)8/26/2002 3:26:31 PM
From: hal jordan
   of 3959
 
You said: >>We were talking about Talmudic Jews and Orthodox Judaism, not non-Jewish supporters of Zionism.<<

This is what you stated in a prior post: >>If you support racist Zionism and Talmudic Judaism and give them aid and comfort, you are an Orthodox Talmudic Jews!<<

You made no differentiation in that statement to Jew or non-Jew. Your logic has to apply to everybody, not one set of people.

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To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (1643)8/26/2002 3:48:44 PM
From: hal jordan
   of 3959
 
>>My wife was raised as an atheist.<<

Then why do you keep saying she is a Jewish princess! The answer is to keep deceiving people into thinking you have nothing against Jews. I've got news for you---no one is deceived by your deceit.

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To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (1661)8/26/2002 6:53:09 PM
From: goldsnow
   of 3959
 
Emile Do you deny that Great Majority of Christians Scholars are of the highest opinion of the Genius of the Talmudist Jew Maimonides (Rambam) and his work?

Do you further deny that most Christian Scholars that followed in his footsteps were heavily influenced by Rambam?

reason-science-faith.co.uk

firstthings.com

The Rabbinical writings were broadly similar in approach. The Targums (though put in their final versions later) were Aramaic paraphrases of the Hebrew text which were commonly used in 1st century Synagogue worship. Jesus, the disciples and Paul would all have heard Targumic interpretations regularly in their synagogues. Some Targumic language is clearly reflected in the New Testament - for example the ‘Memra’ (Word) is used as an alternative name for God. Thus eg:

Before the creation of the world a garden had been planted by the Memra of the Lord God from Eden for the righteous, and he made Adam dwell there when he created him. 18

.

He then goes on to argue that had this been intended the Hebrew word used would have been quite different. This whole tradition represented by Rashi, Ibn Ezra, Maimonides and Gersonides (some of which influenced key Christian scholars like Nicholas of Lyra) – consistently holds a high view of Scripture and the Pentateuch, but consistently specifically rejects overly literal understandings of Genesis 1-3. 20 Maimonides, for example, probably the greatest Jewish exegete after Rashi, is quite explicit that parts of Genesis 1-3 cannot be taken literally.

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To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (1661)8/26/2002 8:45:25 PM
From: goldsnow
   of 3959
 
Emile, it sure looks like there is no difference between Talmudic Rabbis and Christian Theologians, except former speak of Messiah and later of Jesus-Resurection-all the rest, same, plus all site that Genius, Maimonides

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To: goldsnow who wrote (1667)8/26/2002 10:02:45 PM
From: Emile Vidrine
   of 3959
 
The bottomless chasm between Jesus and Talmudic Judaism:

THE TALMUDIC PERSPECTIVE

The Jews for Judaism web site explains the historical "Jewish Belief in Messiah," from the Mishna (Torah) by Maimonides:

"... In his monumental work Mishneh Torah, Maimonides (1135-1204) spelled out the fundamental Jewish concept of the messiah as it was handed down to us, generation after generation, from the time of the prophets…"

"…from the Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Melachim XI - XII. The King Messiah will in some future time come, restore the kingdom of David to its former power, build the Temple, bring together the scattered of Israel, and all the ancient laws will again be in force. Sacrifices will be offered, and years of release and Jubilees will be kept as prescribed in the Torah. Whoever does not believe in him, or does not hope for his coming, shows a lack of faith not only in the prophets, but also in the Torah…"


Many Jews have believed there would be many Messiahs. At the time of Christ, Hyam Maccoby states:

"… Any leader who succeeded in driving out the Romans and setting up an independent Jewish state would have little difficulty in being recognized as the Messiah. His very success would prove his claim. Thus Bar Kochba was recognized as the Messiah by Rabbi Akiva even though there was no evidence of his descent from David."

From the Jewish Guardian of 1924, we read that the great messianic prophecy, Isaiah 53, refers to the sufferings of Israel, rather than Christ:

"… an article in the Jewish Press,… according to the teaching of the "Liberal Jewish Synagogue," the beautiful passages in the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah concerning " the Man of Sorrows acquainted with grief, "usually supposed by Christians to relate to the promised Messiah, are interpreted to modern Jewish youth as relating to Israel and signifying that Israel's " sufferings were caused by the sins of other nations," who thus "escaped the suffering they deserved." Consequently, "Israel was offered for the sake of the whole world. "

Messiah and Peace

According to Dr. Lawrence J. Epstein, current Jewish teaching excludes Jesus because it is unanimously believed that the Messiah will bring peace:

"Jesus is not seen as the messiah. In the Jewish view, the messiah is a human being who will usher in an era of peace. We can tell the messiah by looking at the world and seeing if it is at peace. From the Jewish view, this clearly did not happen when Jesus was on Earth or anytime after his death."

Hyam Maccoby considers Jesus to be a rebel, but misrepresented by the gospel accounts out of fear of reprisals by Rome:

"…Jesus was executed as a rebel, against Rome, not as a blasphemer against the Jewish religion, and that the Gospel's misrepresentations on this point are politically motivated--I regard as strongly established…"

Hyam Maccoby, author, is considered a classical scholar and Rabbi of Reform Judaism, and has in recent years been director of the library at the Leo Baeck College of Judaistics in London. His books appear to present accepted ideas regarding Christ, Christianity and the New Testament and the Jewish thought. Clarifying the various Jewish thought and Christian misconceptions redefines Jesus' mission:

"…The phrase 'the kingdom of God'…meant the reign of God (not His heavenly territory) and referred to a projected return to a Jewish system of theocracy…"

"….He [Jesus] had campaigned among 'the lost sheep of Israel', calling them to repentance, because he felt that the coming of God's Kingdom was being held back by Israel's sin's. Pharisee writings often stress that God's promises to Israel are not automatically fulfilled; they depend on Israel's worthiness and co-operation ... "
"…Jesus' mission as a prophet was exclusively directed towards the Jews, not towards the Gentiles. The idea that Jesus rejected the Jews and transferred the Old Testament 'promises' to the Gentiles was a later invention of the Gentile-Christian Church…"
"… Some believed that the Messiah would inaugurate a new era for the whole world; that the nations of the world would acknowledge the One God and his Temple in Jerusalem; that the Jews would be revered as the chosen priests of the One God; and that an era of world peace would begin when, in the words of Isaiah's wonderful internationalist vision, the swords would be beaten into plowshares and the wolf would lie down with lamb. Some, however, did not believe that the coming of the Messiah would necessarily bring about an era of international peace. There might be many Messiahs - many more sorrows and comfortings, defeats and victories - for the Jewish people before that happened. After all, there had been Messiahs before and none had brought everlasting peace. The vision of Isaiah was acknowledged by every Pharisee, as the word of God but it was not necessarily attached to the expectation of the coming Messiah who would defeat the Romans."

In The Traditions of the Jews, from the Talmud (treatises Baba Bathra folio 74b, Pesachim folio 32, Bekhoroth folio 57 and Massektoth Ta'anith folio 31), J.P Stehaln presents a glorious scenario of the Messianic era - without Jesus Christ as the Messiah:

"… when the Messianic era arrives. After the return of the Jews from all nations and parts of the world… the Messiah, we are told in the Talmud, will entertain them at a gorgeous banquet, where they will be seated at tables and regaled with wine from Adam's wine-cellar. The first course is to consist of a roasted ox named Behemoth, so immense that every day it eats up the grass upon a thousand hills; the second of a monstrous fish Leviathan; the third of a female Leviathan boiled and pickled; the fourth of a gigantic roast fowl known as Barjuchne, of which the egg alone was so enormous that when it fell out of the nest it crushed three hundred tall cedars and the white overflowed threescore villages. This course is to be followed up by "the most splendid and pompous Dessert," that can be procured, including fruit from the Tree of Life and "the Pomegranates of Eden which are preserved for the Just."

"At the end of the banquet "God will entertain the company at a ball"; He Himself will sit in the midst of them, and everyone will point Him out with his finger, saying: "Behold, this is our God: we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."



Sin and Salvation

Romans 3:23

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

From "The Differences between Judaism and Christianity, we see the great partition between Jewish and Christian thought on sin confirmed.

"Judaism does not accept the notion of original sin, the idea that people are bad from birth and cannot remove sin by themselves but need an act of grace provided by the sacrificial death of Jesus as atonement for all of humanity's sins. For Christians, there are no other forms of salvation other than through Jesus." 32.

Dr. Epstein goes on to explain that Jewish thought about sin and atonement. The sinner may seek forgiveness from God through human works:

"He [Jesus] also did not absorb the sins of people. For Jews, sins are removed not by Jesus' atonement but by seeking forgiveness. Jews seek forgiveness from God for sins against God and from other people (not just God) for sins against those people. Seeking forgiveness requires a sincere sense of repenting but also seeking directly to redress the wrong done to someone. Sins are partially removed through prayer which replaced animal sacrifice as a way of relieving sins. They are also removed by correcting errors against others. "

Hyam Maccoby explains:

"... There was no concept of a Suffering Messiah who would die on the cross to purge mankind of sin…. To the Jews salvation was a physical not a purely spiritual concept. The Messianic age, to the Jews, was to be the culmination of human history on earth.

Also, regarding prayer Maccoby believes that it is possible for man to approach God in a sinless condition:

"…The belief in the efficacy of prayer was very strong among the Pharisees…. Only the most concerted beam of concentration, directed from Gethsemane to God, could obliterate the traces of the sins of Israel, and bring about the hour of redemption. Jesus alone was not sufficient…This explains why Jesus narrowed down his company to the Twelve on that night. He wanted the company of those on whom he could most rely, for the power of sinless prayer would be far more important than the strength of mere number."

Heaven and Hell

The writings of Dr. Epstein present the Jews' overly spiritualized and less severe view of the afterlife:

"...Traditionalists gave the name Gehenna to the place where souls were punished. Many Jewish thinkers noted that since, essentially, God is filled with mercy and love, punishment is not to be considered to be eternal. There are, similarly, many varying conceptions of paradise, such as that paradise is the place where we finally understand the true concept of God. It is also possible that there is no separate Heaven and Hell, only lesser or greater distance from God after death. In addition, punishment might be self-determined on the basis of suffering in kind the suffering the person brought about. That is, Judaism doesn't have a clear sense of Heaven and Hell, with different places in Hell for different punishments. Rather, the idea is that God uses the afterlife to provide ultimate justice and for the wicked to seek some sort of final redemption."

Note Scripture says:

Romans 6:20-23:

"For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. "

Hebrews 9:27:

"And as it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this the judgment.

Oneness Doctrine & the Trinity

Dr. Epstein summarizes the Jewish doctrine of "oneness" as opposed to the "Trinity" or Christian doctrine of three Persons in one God.

"Judaism insists on a notion of monotheism, the idea that there is one God. As Judaism understands this idea, God cannot be made up of parts, even if those parts are mysteriously united. The Christian notion of trinitarianism is that God is made up of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Such a view, even if called monotheistic because the three parts are, by divine mystery, only one God, is incompatible with the Jewish view that such a division is not possible. The Jewish revolutionary idea is that God is one. This idea allows for God's unity and uniqueness as a creative force. Thus, for Jews, God is the creator of all that we like and all that we don't. There is no evil force with an ability to create equal to God's. Judaism sees Christianity's trinitarianism as a weakening of the idea of God's oneness."

Peter Michas, of Messengers of Messiah, asserted in an email discussion this belief in the "oneness" doctrine.

"… Yet the minute I saw the Hebrew thinking of the oneness and the rest of it, it was never unclear to me again."

In his book, THE ROD OF AN ALMOND TREE IN GOD'S MASTER PLAN, Peter. Michas expands upon his approval of the Hebrew viewpoint of God and the Trinity.

"The unity of Yeshua HaMashiach with God the Father and the Holy Spirit has never been clearly understood from the doctrine of the Trinity..."

"To understand the true relationship of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, it is essential to preserve the concept of oneness..."

"The aspect of the Father may be simply understood as the Will of God. The aspect of the Son may be understood as the Word of God. The aspect of the Spirit of the Holy One may be understood as the Power of God..."

"To say God is three 'persons' opens the door to misunderstanding God. God is Spirit and cannot be reduced to the concept of a person..." .

"The Spirit of the Holy One is the very essence of the power of God the Father and not some separate entity."

Peter Michas refers to the Godhead as three "aspects" and the Holy Spirit as an "essence" rather than a Person. It is already established by the Jewish people themselves that the Judaic teachings reject the doctrine of three Persons in one God. They do not believe God would manifest in the flesh as Jesus Christ nor do they believe that He is God. Their oneness doctrine is that there cannot be a Father, Son and Holy Spirit, which means the rejection of Jesus Christ as divine Savior and Lord.

There is no Trinity concept in Judaism, unless, however, one embraces the Jewish Kabbalah.

"M. Vulliaud quotes Isaac Meyer's assertion that, "the triad, of the ancient Cabala is Kether, the Father; Binah, the Holy Spirit or the Mother; and Hochmah, the Word or the Son." But in order to avoid the sequence of the Christian Trinity this arrangement has been altered in the modern Cabala of Luria and Moses of Cordovero, etc."

The Jewish Encyclopœdia clarifies that the Cabalistic trinity is not to be confused with Christianity.

"... The Jewish Encyclopœdia…goes on to say that what appears to be Christian in the Cabala is only esoteric doctrine."

2 John 7:

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

2 John 9:

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."

Christians & the Chosen People

Jewish people characterize Christians in terms different from what we may think.

Avi ben Mordechai states that Jews are specifically called to prostelyze:

"… He said to go out into all the world (as you go) and make talmidim of all the goyim. …we are His talmidim or students of His Oral Traditions which is the proper definition of the term "Gospel." We are to follow His Mishnah and Gemara, i.e., His Talmud, and take it to the goyim, teaching them to observe all that He commanded us!…"

Isn't this precisely the ministry of Peter Michas, Jacob Prasch and other Hebrew Roots teachers: taking the Talmud to the goyim. The term "goyim" which Mr. Mordechai uses needs to be understood in its historical context. Citing information from the Kabbalistic book, the Zohar, a part of the Jewish mysticism which Avi ben Mordechai teaches, we note:

"… the Chosen People…forms the basis of all Talmudic and Cabalistic writings. …According to the Zohar, "All Israelites will have a part in the future world," and on arrival there will not be handed over like the goyim (or non-Jewish races) to the hands of the angel Douma and sent down to Hell.5. Indeed the goyim are even denied human attributes."

According to The Emek ha Melek, the work of the Cabalist Naphtali, a disciple of Luria, the goyim are of the devil:

"…Thus the Zohar again explains that the words of the Scripture "Jehovah Elohim made man", mean that He made Israel. 6. The seventeenth-century Rabbinical treatise Emek ha Melek observes: " Our Rabbis of blessed memory have said: "Ye Jews are men because of the soul ye have from the Supreme Man (i.e, God). But the nations of the world are not styled men because they have not, from the Holy and Supreme Man, the Neschama (or glorious soul) but they have the Nephesch (soul) from Adam Belial, that is the malicious and unnecessary man, called Sammael, the Supreme Devil." 7"

Another way of saying or spelling goyim, is Goi. Rev. I. B. Pranaitis, in his online work, The Talmud Unmasked, notes that this term has been removed from recent editions:

"Goi - Race, or people. The Jews also call a man a Goi - a gentile; they call a gentile woman a Goiah. ... It is mostly applied to non-Jews, or idolators. In Jewish books which treat of Idolatry, worshippers of idols are often called by this single word Goi. For this reason, in more recent editions of the Talmud the use of the word Goi is purposely avoided and other words for non-Jews are substituted.

It is well known that in the Jewish language, the Jews call Christians among whom they live, Goim. Nor do the Jews deny this.

Sometimes in their popular magazines they say that this word means nothing harmful or evil. But the contrary can be seen in their books written in the Hebrew language. For instance, in Choschen Hammischpat (34, 22), the name Goi is used in a depraved sense:

"Traitors and Epicureans and Apostates are worse than Goim"49.

Indeed the whole idea of gentiles or "goyim" studying the Jewish oral law as suggested by Jacob Prasch, Peter Michas, Avi ben Mordechai and others, is in direct disobedience to the proclamations in the Talmud. Even a Christian who is found studying the Law of Israel merits death. Sanhedrin (59a) states:

"Rabbi Jochanan says: A Goi who pries into the Law is guilty to death. "Even a Christian who is found studying the Law of Israel merits death."

It seems very perplexing indeed that leaders of the Hebrew Roots movement would direct our thoughts to the teachings of the sages in the Talmud, Mishna and Midrash, when these same sages have been teaching the Jewish people to destroy the writings of the Christians including the New Testament.

"Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament."

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To: blind alley racer who wrote (1652)8/27/2002 3:36:14 AM
From: GUSTAVE JAEGER
   of 3959
 
Re: Do you believe that the EU's suspicions of genetically-modified foodstuffs as unwarranted?

Yes I do. The EU's current predicament is its overcapacity in agricultural products --both in terms of workforce (7+ million farms) and food supplies. That's why the EU's enlargement process came to a standstill, after all. Poland, with still 25% of its workforce in agriculture is gonna disrupt the so-called CAP (Common Agricultural Policy). Besides, France is a major agribusiness/foodstuff exporter (groupe Danone, a.o.).

So, the only way out for Europe's bloated agribusiness is access to overseas outlets: China, with 1.2 billion people to feed, India with close to 1 billion people, etc. And BANG! here comes the bad news: those underdeveloped Chinks --who in the seventies were still on the brink of famine-- have taken on biogenetics!! Not only will they be able to become self-sufficient in addressing their food demand but they'll scrap their pesticide imports altogether!! And guess who used to supply them with pesticides?? Here's the story:

Message 17264043
Message 17211710

Of course, that's not the way the whole Frankenfood hoax is spun to old-age Europe --God forbid! Hell no, agro-luddites got a much better sales pitch: they'll freak us out with stories about mutant bugs, human genetic disorders and whatnot... But, as an eminent geneticist observed, five hundred years ago, the potato was introduced in Europe (from South America). So, if agro-luddites are right about a DNA-contamination of traditional crops (fragments of DNA wafted over nearby crops) then what of DNA-contamination by potato fields --a totally alien vegetable in Europe up until 1550??!? (*)

Gus

(*) Message 16029244

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