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   Politicsforeign affairs, unchaperoned

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To: Karen Lawrence who wrote (216)9/2/2004 3:16:15 PM
From: American Spirit
   of 261
Zell is a disgrace to his nation.

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To: American Spirit who wrote (217)9/2/2004 3:18:55 PM
From: Karen Lawrence
   of 261
What does GA think of Zell now? Obviously, they voted for a dem, who flimflammed and flip/flopped and turned out to be a racist liar rightwing looney. Must make Georgians proud!!!!

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To: teevee who wrote (214)9/2/2004 4:05:13 PM
From: marcos
   of 261
Sure, we're tribal at core, that's chuck's main point, and he's right of course .... at the same time, everything we think of as Civilisation has been a process of reducing the damage of too-tight too-exclusive tribalism .... if we hadn't been able to overcome that to great degree, none of our tribes would span more than a few days ride across, we'd be at constant war with each other, we'd all have distinct languages and be unable to communicate well, we'd have developed far less, if at all

It's all about learning to get along together - even within the tribe, the physically strongest would rule, if the others were unable to cooperate well enough to spread power more intelligently

Now we've got technological power up the ying yang, and we've definitely got dominion over the natural world - these are very new concepts, we'll be a while learning how to deal with them ....... we have been clever, now can we be wise, that is the question ..... only answer i see is to merge the tribes, marry each other's sisters - project present trends off into the future, and it's a clear choice, we've got One World, or no world

You have to have struggle of course, for release of excess testosterone ... but we have a home-grown medium for that - hockey

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To: marcos who wrote (219)9/2/2004 8:33:34 PM
From: teevee
   of 261
I agree with what you say, but most of it gets parked when commodities are in short supply and prices are high. Funny how these seem to be spacially and temporally associated with wars throughout history. Probably just a coincidence eh:-))

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To: marcos who wrote (219)9/2/2004 8:53:11 PM
From: Chas.
   of 261
Marcos,enjoyed your post....and in response.

we Are at constant war with each other, we Do speak distinctly different languages, we Do have trouble communicating with each other(nations)...half of our world population has Not developed, look at India, China,Africa and Middle East as example......

I agree with you that we would all be better off if we could get along together....however that is wishful thinking...

re "spreading power more intelligently" look to North Korea, Iran, Syria, SA, China....examples galore..

"Technological power up the ying yang", "dominion over the world" I am thankful these concepts reside mostly with USA, Canada, Great Britain......

we, the free West have been clever and we are fairly wise, IMO...

the tribes will never merge, the obstacles are religion,
ethnic loyalty, false pride of Motherland....

Hope for future generations lies in economic viability and jobs for all peoples of all tribes...these two tangibles will transcend politics....

I do not rule out the possibility of extraterrestial intervention at some future date also.......

I am reminded of "The Day the Earth Stood Still"

regards from Chucky

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To: Chas. who wrote (221)9/2/2004 11:31:31 PM
From: teevee
   of 261
Hope for future generations lies in economic viability and jobs for all peoples of all tribes...these two tangibles will transcend politics....

not so sure its that simple now that the nuclear genie is out of the bottle. Take Pakistan for example. Before they were a nuclear power, they were shunned for all kinds of bad behavior. What happened since becoming a nuclear power? The USA is a friend, India won't seek a "final solution" for disputed territory (Pakistan has at least 20 nuclear tipped missiles that can hit anywhere in India) and Pakistan now has the respect it needs to follow Frank Sinatra's mantra "I did it my way". Why wouldn't Iran want to become a nuclear power too if becoming one garners instant respect, especially when you are sitting on all that oil? Funny how everybody seems to get along better under a MAD (mutually assured destruction) policy.

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To: Karen Lawrence who wrote (191)9/3/2004 6:25:03 AM
   of 261
Re: Then I read that organized crime places their people in low-level bank jobs to steal IDs. In other words, identity theft is actually an inside job.

Karen, you ain't seen nothing yet....

Where a bribe can buy an unsuspecting bride

Sharon LaFraniere/NYT

Thursday, September 2, 2004

The first Sylvia Tshigo knew of her marriage was the day her husband showed up at her door in March 2003, requesting a divorce. The 37-year-old Nigerian husband had in hand an official marriage certificate from South Africa's Department of Home Affairs. The certificate declared that she had married him in 2000, she said. He wanted to dissolve the marriage, he told her, because his mother in Nigeria was critically ill and he had to go home. At first, Tshigo said, she was flabbergasted. Then she was furious at the man and at the South African Ministry of Home Affairs, which handles immigration and passports, for marrying her off without so much as a fare-thee-well. "Home Affairs is supposed to be people who can be trusted," Tshigo, 31, said in a telephone interview. "I am so very disappointed."

Thousands of South African women would agree. In the past three years, the Home Affairs agency has ruefully admitted, 3,387 bewildered brides have complained that their recorded "I do's" were really "I never did's." More than 2,000 marriages have been annulled so far. Another 1,000 or so cases are under review.

The ministry itself is also under intense scrutiny. As investigators have discovered, marrying a South African woman without her knowledge was as simple as paying a bribe, averaging about $750, to one of many willing Home Affairs officials. The certificates were valuable because a foreigner who marries a South African is automatically entitled to permanent residence and a work permit.

As the most advanced nation in the region, South Africa is a magnet for immigrants seeking a new life and criminals seeking new identities. After Tshigo's ersatz marriage, for instance, her husband was hired as a doctor at a public hospital in Pretoria, enjoying the rights of a South African citizen. "That man," she said bitterly, "he has benefited a lot with my name."

Oh, and before I forget: My greetings to Manolo, your charming Mexican spouse...


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To: teevee who wrote (222)9/3/2004 8:04:26 AM
From: Chas.
   of 261
I agree with what you say but then we move on into the darker side of reality and it becomes really depressing...

I wonder if Marcos has already moved through this dark reality side of life and that is why he is such a pacifist....

it keeps coming back to Tribal mentality.........

have a good one


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To: Chas. who wrote (224)9/4/2004 5:21:44 AM
   of 261
Get used to it, Europe: Bush could win again
Roger Cohen IHT

Saturday, September 4, 2004

When Wolfgang Ischinger, the German ambassador to the United States, receives visitors from the Bundestag these days, they ask him what the result of the American election is likely to be.

"Well," Ischinger says. "The vote is very close. But the likelihood of President Bush winning is at least 50 percent."

The usual reaction is: "Mr. Ambassador, you cannot be serious. Are you suggesting Bush could be reelected?"

To judge by the Republican National Convention, which took over midtown Manhattan this week, Europeans and the rest of the world had better get over their incredulity and get used to the notion that four more years of Bush is a real possibility. This is a seesaw election: The candidate who looks like dead meat one week looks like a hungry hunter the next. Another swing could be just around the corner. But right now, Bush has seized the initiative.

The president has been helped by sloppy moves from the Democratic candidate, John Kerry, who got himself photographed this week windsurfing off Nantucket, an island retreat of the well-heeled. With less than 60 days to the vote, Americans want hard work from Kerry and fewer reminders of his wealth.

The Kerry campaign has given the impression of groping for a theme, or at least a sound bite, to derail the barreling Bush bandwagon.

In theory, the mixed economy should provide such a theme. But this first national election since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks seems driven by foreign and national security policy. In this area, and in ways that have illustrated the gulf between the United States and much of Europe, the Bush team has been relentless in attacking Kerry.

Here, for example, is the view of Senator Zell Miller, a Democrat from Georgia who has embraced Bush. "Senator Kerry has made it clear that he would use military force only if approved by the United Nations. Kerry would let Paris decide when America needs defending. I want Bush to decide."

This derision - with no basis in what Kerry has said - comes just a few days after Jacques Chirac, the French president, told his ambassadors in Paris that the ground rules for the world should be set from the "United Nations charter, which is the law that applies to all of us."

On this side of the Atlantic, among Republicans, contempt for the UN is very much in vogue, with contempt for France not far behind.

The moral framework within which this election is being framed by the Bush team is this: The United States is at a crossroads, faced by a nihilistic terrorist enemy bent on its destruction, and must take the fight to this enemy, whatever the UN thinks, under the unwavering guidance of its current savior-president.

The alternative: Armageddon on its shores as a Kerry administration wavers.

The message is not very subtle. It overlooks several troubling questions - the loss of American credibility due to unfound weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, the loss of American moral stature due to the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, the loss of American popularity due to a wide international perception of bullying - but it is a message that hits home in the heartland.

For a long time, the United States has defined itself against an enemy that threatened the freedom whose spread throughout the world it sees as a central national calling. That enemy was a Nazi, then a Communist, now a jihadist.

The Bush administration has seized this central truth, couched it in the moralizing and religious idiom that is the language of the Republican Party base, and developed an overarching argument designed to make Kerry look like a conciliatory wimp unprepared to defend America in its hour of need.

To many Europeans, the arguments - full of references to heroes and glory and the mystical forces that Bush, in his concluding speech, identified as "a calling from beyond the stars" - look simplistic, even dangerous.

Ana Palacio, the former Spanish foreign minister in a government that was friendly to Bush, put it this way during a visit to New York this week. "A widespread European view is that it is the very aggression of the United States - and of Israel - that is generating terrorism."

But such ideas do not impinge on Republican certainties expressed with a force insistent enough to frame the debate in America. The chants of "USA, USA, USA," that have risen repeatedly from the crowd in Madison Square Garden, most deafeningly when Bush said he would "never relent in defending America, whatever it takes," are indicative of a restive national mood.

While the nations of Europe have quietly retired from history - at least the history of great national combats - and placed their faith in international institutions and laws, the United States has entered upon another epic struggle that it sees as defining for the future of mankind. "A struggle of historic proportions," Bush called it, waged by "the greatest force for good on this earth."

A day earlier, Vice President Dick Cheney said, "The election of 2004 is one of the most important, not just in our lives, but in our history." On it, he suggested, hinged the security of the American people.

But, Cheney went on, "Senator Kerry denounces American action when other countries don't approve."

Then came the punch line: "George W. Bush will never seek a permission slip to defend the American people."

Because those Bundestag visitors still do not believe Bush may win, Ischinger does not get asked about the consequences of such a victory.

But privately he is worried about the future of trans-Atlantic relations. "I can see the European editorials," he says, "the expressions of disbelief."

This week has made the roots of that disbelief clear: A big part of the United States is pumped up for a mission to demonstrate in the Middle East what Bush called "the transformative power of liberty."

Transformative upheaval is not the European thing these days: Been there, done that. So the Continent is worried.

Roger Cohen can be reached at

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To: GUSTAVE JAEGER who wrote (225)9/4/2004 9:04:26 AM
From: Chas.
   of 261
Excellent article, enjoyed reading it.....

there is a lot of over reaction going on at present.....

one needs only to check the historical records to see that USA is on the side of right, freedom, liberty and justice for all....

however we all have our own

Chirac has no creditability left since being caught in Saddam Husseins back pocket with "Food for Oil" favors and side deals...along with Germany, Russia and I wonder about Belgium......

the unfortunate reality of USA politics is that the best the Democrats could come up with is John Kerry(2nd choice) and not a very good one in any event.....

our 2 party system needs an overhaul in my estimation, especially regards the primary nomination process....

I remain a staunch conservative irregardless and would rather see Bush and the NeoCons in power than the Clinton/Albright act of Kerry/Edwards team.....

have a good one


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