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   PastimesAMAT Off-Topic Forum


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To: Jerome who wrote (761)5/10/2002 8:27:09 PM
From: Jerome
   of 786
 
Con't..."axis of evil"

One only has to read a little about the Boer War in Africa to learn how much the British miscalculated. What started as a holiday jaunt for the British soldiers ended up costing them about 40,000 lives.

Iraq could end up about the same.

JMO...Jerome

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To: Jerome who wrote (762)5/13/2002 8:26:00 AM
From: michael97123
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Hell Afganistan is smelling more and more like vietnam. I hope we are both overreacting and these guys have enough sense to do this right or not do it at all.
With that HBO LBJ movie coming in june focusing in on guys like macnamara, who also seemed so competent back then, we must be careful about following blindly. On the other hand it would be a good thing if our leaders no what they are doing and in a couple of years we are mostly terror free and without saddam while at the same time iran and NK are changed from within. We also thought reagan might have been a bit crazy when he told gorby to take down the wall. That gamble did work out. mike

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To: michael97123 who wrote (763)5/13/2002 9:04:41 AM
From: Jerome
   of 786
 
Look at the Bush attack on Castro....to me it looks like a major misstep. If Bush squanders his creditability on countries like Cuba....he is leaving little to work with on the axis of evil.

JMO...Jerome

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To: Jerome who wrote (764)5/13/2002 9:46:53 AM
From: michael97123
   of 786
 
Jerome,
Have we attacked Cuba? Did i miss the news? What misstep? Tiny country ruled my last of commie dictators. Even if bush policy (unlike your boy jimmy) is wrong toward castro, how could this ever be a major mistake? mike

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To: michael97123 who wrote (765)5/13/2002 10:39:04 AM
From: Fred Levine
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It looks like we have dwindled to three contentious posters. I visited Cuba under Castro in 1959-60 (over New Year's day) and people forgot that the background was the ruthless dictatorship of Batista. Castro was wildly popular, a cult hero, and had not designated himself a communist. Because he nationalized United Fruit and others, Eisenhower isolated him and he joined the communist bloc. Eisenhower refused to meet with him.

In retrospect, it was a brilliant move because Castro contributed to the bankruptcy of the USSR and was, with the exception of the Soviet missles, no threat to the USA. Whenever I hear Cubans talk about him now, they get annoyed when I ask about Batista.

fred

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To: Fred Levine who wrote (766)5/13/2002 11:07:15 AM
From: michael97123
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Fred,
I was in HS then and Castro's revolution was one of the great romantic revolutions of the day. It is unfathonable how a baseball fanatic like castro could become one of the great despots in our hemisphere. He could have allied himself with the communists and remained independent, socialist and democratic or at least he could have tried. Looking back over time, he must have been a communist all along like Lenin and masked the evil side until he gained 100% power. In any case we can all agree that history has passed him by and its time to go, one way or the other.

RE: the mideast My feeling is that Netanyahoo made a fundamental mistake in my view, by undercutting his PM in a wartime situation. I hear of new alliances forming between Labor, the Sharansky party, and realists in Likud that will isolate Bibi. Netanyahoo is an offshoot of that ultra religious Brooklyn Jewish community that became the heart of the the settlement movement--Greater Israel/Judea and Samaria. Sharon is pre-that movement and althought he may covet that land for political/military reasons, he is not wedded to that concept the way the religious right in Israel is. YOur thoughts Fred and jerome of course. mike

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To: michael97123 who wrote (767)5/13/2002 10:14:39 PM
From: Jerome
   of 786
 
Mike & Fred....the two contentious posters on this thread.

I think the Likud party made a strange announcement about the no possibility of a Palestinean State.

Why did they bring this up now? Was this meant to undercut Bush and Powell? I believe that Israeli politics will remain a mystery to me. There must be some one in the Likud party that says every morning..."What would really piss the Americans off today".....As you said Mike the Israeli's ar not PR geniuses.
If Netanyahoo miscalculated does Sharon see his vision strengthened? What happens when the US says there sould be a Palestinean state?

Concerning Cuba and the biological weapons charge. I Think the Bush administration charge was a trial balloon. I think it was an error to make the charge, because crying wolf too often becomes self defeating.

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To: Jerome who wrote (768)5/14/2002 8:26:23 AM
From: michael97123
   of 786
 
Likud move mostly internal politics. Bibi wants to replace Sharon as the Likud candidate in the next election. Sharon has a chance to position himself in the middle now if he wishes or to court the right in order to get their nod.
Sharon and Netanyahu represent two quite different strains of conservative Israeli movement.
Sharon is a patriot and places Israels security above all other matters. Netanyaho and his group came to the fore in the sixties and seventies. They are the original believers in the theory of Greater Israel(more land) that has gotten Israel way too deep into the settlement mode.
So on one hand Sharon would trade most of the settlements for genuine peace with genuine security while the others want this less than pursuing an expansionist agenda.
The good news is that if you add the sharon right, to the sheransky Russian movement and combine that with Labor you wind up with 2/3 of the vote. The trick is not to letter a PM election wind up as a contest between Netanyahoo and some Labor peacenik. Perhaps sharon will wind up heading the labor ticket. If the vote were held today Sharon would beat anyone, assuming he is on the ballot of course as either representatvie of likud, independent, or Labor. mike
PS Why would Bush lie about castro? What is the goal of such a lie? I heard Larry Eagleburger on Crossfire call for relations with cuba but said at the same time that the admin guy who brought the charges is a good guy and would say that without believing it. Maybe Jimmy Carter is the problem. Wait till Bill Clinton starts roaming the world as X Commander and chief. Carter and Clinton are so different in makeup but so much the same in ideology and hubris.

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To: michael97123 who wrote (769)5/14/2002 8:54:09 AM
From: Jerome
   of 786
 
>>>What is the goal of such a lie?<<< (about Cuba)...

The goal would be to see if there was any major support (outside of Miami) for getting rid of Fidel. Keep in mind that Canada and Mexico have normalized trading relationship with Cuba.

Bush's "axis of evil" balloon has to be pumped up periodically to keep it airborn.

Since Bush himself has not made the charge his hands are clean. And he is not rushing to support that statement.

Any attempt to get rid of Castro would help Bush in Florida where he won that landslide election.

Bush, (Governor of Florida) is also helped by that kind of talk. I believe that the Governor of Florida runs for re-election this fall.

Had there been normalized trade relations with Cuba for the past 30 years , Cuba would not be in the poor state that it is today, and Castro might not have survived.

JMO....Jerome

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To: Jerome who wrote (770)5/14/2002 9:17:47 AM
From: michael97123
   of 786
 
Jerome,
Unfortunately castro will live forever. Its hard to believe that a baseball nut could be a tyrant. Dont forget the missiles Jerome. He almost plunged the world into nuclear war. It's personal with him just like it is with Bin Laden. Yes, its dangerous to carry a personal grudge this long but anyone who remembers the CMCrisis knows why. Having said all of that you might be right that it would have been better policy to have removed restictions on trade. But dont be fooled by that revolutionary mask. Castro is a murderous totalitarian tyrant and i will not be unhappy when he passes. And the Cubans who have come to this country and have become american patriots are to be admired even if our agenda shouldnt mirror theirs so closely. MIke

PS Do you disagree with my assessment of castro? Have you bought into that romantic revolutioary nonsense? When Castro dies, I would make Jeb Bush "el Presidente".

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