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   PoliticsForeign Affairs Discussion Group


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To: mistermj who wrote (88489)3/31/2003 9:18:39 PM
From: FaultLine
   of 281500
 
Apparently Win finds it " cool"

no, I don't think that's it...

--fl

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To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (82808)3/31/2003 9:20:06 PM
From: Clarksterh
   of 281500
 
Although the 1994 Agreed Framework obligated the consortium to complete construction of both light water reactors by 2003, years passed without any action other than building the infrastructure needed to support the construction project. The U.S. calculated that North Korea would not long survive its economic difficulties, and that if construction of the reactors could be delayed long enough, they need never be built. Newly elected President Bush openly expressed his disdain for the 1994 Agreed Framework. It was only in August 2002 that cement was finally poured for the foundation of the first reactor, at Kumho on the eastern coast.

The author conveniently forgets that N. Korea had to take some steps before construction on the light water reactor - and N. Korea did not live up to its part of the bargain (I believe inspections were involved).

Clark

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To: XBrit who wrote (88492)3/31/2003 9:20:33 PM
From: FaultLine
   of 281500
 
Oh, I thought it said it could pierce that much, which seems likely, not that there are necessarily any vehicles like that.

--fl

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To: The Philosopher who wrote (88331)3/31/2003 9:21:25 PM
From: KonKilo
   of 281500
 
If the UN had any integrity left, which it doesn't, it would publicly condemn these tactics.

Put the UN on IGNORE to go in and then call for its help?

I think not.

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To: JustTradeEm who wrote (87573)3/31/2003 9:21:42 PM
From: Dayuhan
   of 281500
 

My point was defending things that at the core, one does not even agree with.

It sounded like this point was being expanded to suggest that some sort of “moral clarity” existed among those in favor of war that did not exist among those opposed. I don’t see any evidence that this is the case.

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To: LindyBill who wrote (87601)3/31/2003 9:25:31 PM
From: Dayuhan
   of 281500
 

If we bombed the reprocessing plant, we would have to do so with the full knowledge that a attempt to strike back by them would mean we would vaporize NK.

Are you suggesting that we should nuke them if we bomb them and they retaliate? It sounds that way: I can’t think of any other way to “vaporize them. That seems way over the top to me, unless their retaliation is really massive, or involves a major WMD strike, and I don’t think it would be politically acceptable in the US. We can’t deploy nukes and wipe out a nation because they fired a few missiles at one of our bases or shelled our embassy, especially if their action is a response to an overt act of war on our part.

I don't think we will do this. However, read what Bush told Woodward last year. He really, really, hates the NK Gov.

Annihilating a nation because you hate their government is a bit much.

I’m not even sure we could nuke the large force they have deployed close to Seoul; not without irradiating a fair number of allies.

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To: KLP who wrote (88353)3/31/2003 9:29:26 PM
From: Neeka
   of 281500
 
I don't think BEEF JERKEY forgot KLP......he and his country weren't ever brutally attacked by religious fanatics.

Let us not forget that the people of the US aren't going to wonder any longer whether we will be attacked like we have been for the last 30 years.

Let us not even speculate that we are hated for believing in who we are.

Let us not hope that we will be loved because we were willing to take it once in awhile for the sake of some utopian peace.

Let us not imagine that the world community has our best interest at heart when it comes to the defense of our country or the survival of our people.......and let us never for a minute think that today the governments of France, Canada, Germany or Syria really sympathize with that reality.

M

edit: Let's also not imagine in our wildest dreams that the International community, or the UN, will condemn the fact that the Red Cross hasn't been able to see our POWs.

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To: JustTradeEm who wrote (87580)3/31/2003 9:29:28 PM
From: Dayuhan
   of 281500
 

What am I missing ?

This was the clip I cited:

…nothing short of the actual outcome of the war will settle whether waging it was a good idea.

I suppose that this could be interpreted a number of ways, but it seemed to me that the author was saying that the outcome of the war will reveal whether or not it was a good idea to have the war in the first place. This is not the case: we will be able to assess whether the outcome was negative, positive, or (most likely) mixed, but we will not be able to assess the outcome relative to the possible outcomes of other courses of action.

Nitpicking, really; I do that now and then.

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To: KLP who wrote (88399)3/31/2003 9:29:44 PM
From: BEEF JERKEY
   of 281500
 
We get most our oil from Alberta and the rest from Walruses.

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To: NickSE who wrote (88450)3/31/2003 9:31:22 PM
From: NickSE
   of 281500
 
Royal Marines storm Basra suburb
telegraph.co.uk

Triumphant Royal Marine commandos yesterday mopped up the final traces of resistance in the south of Basra after the success of the first urban infantry assault of the war by British troops.

Under cover from smoke shells fired by British gunners, troops from Delta Company of 40 Commando renewed the assault at first light, attacking two enemy positions, known by military planners using the operation's James Bond theme as Pussy and Galore.

Attempts by Iraqi troops to flee from the British advance over the Shatt Al-Arab waterway were confounded when two boats crammed with soldiers were attacked by mortars and helicopter-borne missiles.

By midday some sort of normality had returned to the riverside suburb of Abu Al Khasib and Royal Marine foot patrols were already deployed Northern Ireland-style, looking for Saddam loyalists.

They received a warm welcome from the members of the 30,000-strong population, with children and adults giving the thumbs-up, smiling and shouting "Mister, mister, England good".

One surprised Royal Marine said: "We were meant to be giving them food but they keep coming up to us and giving us stuff."

The success of Operation James may now embolden senior commanders to order a full advance on the heart of Basra, a city believed to be controlled by a desperate pro-Saddam minority.


While there were some Royal Marine casualties from accidents in the battle for Abu Al Khasib, none was caused by enemy fire. Looking at the devastation around the town, that seemed astonishing.

Under plumes of black smoke from two burning oil tankers, more than 10 destroyed Iraqi tanks could be seen in one stretch of road alone.

Each had been stopped in its tracks, its thick steel armour peeled open. There did not appear to be any Iraqi dead inside, but plenty of hastily removed uniforms were strewn here and there.

"It looks like the crews got out before the tanks were actually engaged," Brig Jim Dutton, the commander of 3 Commando Brigade, said.

"That says something I suppose about the level of commitment from the enemy we face."

Reinforced trenches and earthworks had been built to the south of the town where it faces the salty, marsh flats of the Faw peninsula.

But no matter how elaborate the Iraqi tank positions, nothing could stop 600 Royal Marines from 40 Commando advancing on foot in the early hours of Sunday supported by tanks, artillery and air power.

The 105mm light guns of 29 Commando Regiment, Royal Artillery, had fired an unprecedented barrage ahead of the Royal Marines. Each of the eight guns from 8 Commando Battery fired more than 100 rounds, and their gun pits out on the flats were each surrounded by a small mountain of burnt brass shell cases.

On the roads within the town there were heaps of British spent ammunition cases, each one telling part of the story of the 14-hour battle for Abu Al Khasib. An Iraqi anti-aircraft gun lay destroyed next to a bridge and mortar impact splashes pockmarked the roads.

The Challenger 2 tanks from C Squadron the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards were crucial to the battle. "Plenty of rocket-propelled grenades were fired at our call signs but they simply bounced off the armour," said Capt Fraser McLeman, 26, from Stratford-upon-Avon, the leader of one of the tank troops.

After the battle, there was a buzz of excitement among the Royal Marines as groups exchanged stories. A physical training instructor sergeant was generally acclaimed after he was hit on his bullet-proof vest by enemy fire. The shot shattered the heavy ceramic plate in his vest but the sergeant continued to fight and even killed his attacker.

One British armoured vehicle was attacked by 70 rocket-propelled grenades but it was not destroyed and its occupants were unhurt.

A Royal Marine told of a grenade glancing off his helmet and another told of how an Iraqi colonel driving a car with a briefcase full of cash refused to stop and was shot dead. "I didn't know what to do with the money so I gave it to the kids, bundles of the stuff," the Royal Marine said.


For the Iraqis the arrival of the British also appeared to be welcome news. British troops discovered evidence of the brutality of the regime in a police station in the suburb where they found what appeared to be a torture chamber.

"If any proof was needed of the nature of Saddam Hussein's regime then things like this give it," Lt-Col Gordon Messenger, the commanding officer of 40 Commando, said.

Local people were not yet in any mood to discuss the past, but life appeared to be returning to some sort of normality yesterday.

Shops opened, selling bags of spices and nuts, and at least one bakery was producing fresh, unleavened bread in a wood-fired oven.

The Royal Marines now patrolling the streets of the town reported good relations with the local population, who tipped them off on Sunday about an ambush being prepared by Saddam loyalists. Using this information, the British soldiers surprised their ambushers, killing three of them.

For Col Messenger yesterday, there was only a residual sense of pride in the performance of his men. "To the layman the achievements in Abu Al Khasib of these men might sound strange but I know them well and it came as no surprise to me," he said. "Quite simply, they were magnificent."

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