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To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (160451)4/14/2005 1:29:50 PM
From: Orcastraiter
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Torture won't work. Expert interrogation is the best option.

You're the one dodging the hard question. Who says that torture is an effective means of interrogation? Provide the name of the person and the rational. Link to their work or study results please.

Orca

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To: Orcastraiter who wrote (160461)4/14/2005 1:35:55 PM
From: michael97123
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Torture works sometimes. It would be stupid to think that it can't. Are there other means that are preferable--yeah sometimes. If it could be proved to you that torture or credible threat of such is useful and stopped a major terror attack, would you change your position? If someone proved to me that terror was useless, i would be against it and happy about it. Can you say the same if someone proved to you that terror had its successes that have saved thousands of lives? Or would you rather have you and your family go down in flames on a matter of principle as some liberals actually have said to me they would. Well not me. Mike

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To: michael97123 who wrote (160462)4/14/2005 1:43:53 PM
From: epicure
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Many things "work". You could implant chips in people to know where they are at all times. You could film everything, so people have no privacy to do wrong.

But what kind of world do you want to live in?

Bacon thought torture was a spiffy way to arrive at truth, and used it in the witch trials in England. Apparently lots of people confessed to being witches under torture. Not surprisingly tortured folks tell you what they think you want to hear. Not only is torture horrible, and anathema to the principles of our society (silly things like due process, and cruel and unusual punishment), it's not very reliable.

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To: jlallen who wrote (160460)4/14/2005 1:45:12 PM
From: bentway
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If your posts are any indicator, you must be a truly crappy attorney.

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To: epicure who wrote (160463)4/14/2005 2:00:20 PM
From: michael97123
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Man, everyone is an expert on torture. I have no idea if it works or not or if it works what percentage of the time. But you do. WOW.

"Many things "work". You could implant chips in people to know where they are at all times. You could film everything, so people have no privacy to do wrong.

But what kind of world do you want to live in?"

Please spare me the bull. No one gives a damn about the 3000 who died at the trade center. As long as you are safe whereever the hell you live, you could care less. Effete intellecutals discussing how many angels on the head of a pin is what we have here at FADG---FP thread my arse. Mike

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To: bentway who wrote (160464)4/14/2005 2:05:58 PM
From: jlallen
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Once again....thanks for the unsolicited endorsement.....when ding dongs like you make such statements, it is music to my ears....

J.

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To: Orcastraiter who wrote (160461)4/14/2005 2:08:37 PM
From: Nadine Carroll
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Torture won't work. Expert interrogation is the best option.

Can you read? The example of physical pressure that I used was sleep deprivation. Do you call that torture? The experts do not.

Expert interrogation does NOT exclude, by its own description, the possibility of some forms of physical pressure and threats. It is you who are running away to pretend that there is some nice clean technological magic way to get information over here, vs. useless torture over there. If that were true, then every professional would know what to do and nobody would ever have a hard choice to make. There is no such dichotomy. Instead there is a spectrum of possible actions.

It is not a nice business, getting information from criminals and terrorists. When police question criminals, they routinely threaten and lie to them. They tell them they will be charged with capital murder and get the death penalty. They tell them their buddy has already turned snitch whether it's true or not. They pretend sympathy and and understanding in an effort to get the criminals to explain their motives for the crime. They insult the criminals in an effort to get them to lose control in rage. They threaten to arrest their mothers and girlfriends as accessories. They tell them that if they don't talk now to Mr. Good Cop, Mr. Bad Cop is going to lose control and beat them to a pulp. None of this qualifies as 'torture' but it still involves extreme duress and is not a nice business at all.

The terrorists have even more motive for not cooperating than ordinary criminals. Plus, it's even more likely that their interrogators are not just trying to prosecute a crime that has already been committed, but prevent something even worse that is about to happen, thus ratcheting up the desperation to get the information quickly before more innocent people die.

Pretending that "oh, experts say torture doesn't work" so there's no problem and no decisions to think about is simply burying your head in the sand. It's juvenile.

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To: michael97123 who wrote (160465)4/14/2005 2:11:20 PM
From: epicure
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If you don't know anything about torture, maybe you should read up on it before endorsing it. There's plenty of reading material out there on torture. It's been used a lot- mostly by repressive governments.

No one is "safe" anywhere. You can die from the flu, get whacked on the head by space debris, get struck by lightening, die from a bee sting, or get killed by a terrorist (the odds are against it, though.) So how much do you want to change this society to prevent what so far is a fairly rare risk of death? It's not about angels on pins, it's about risk assessment, and how much of the constitution you want to throw out to prevent what is, at this time, not a great risk.

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To: jlallen who wrote (160466)4/14/2005 2:13:04 PM
From: michael97123
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Are you for torture JT? Seems if you think there might be a need for it or at least a credible threat of it given, Al quaeda as our enemy, your'e accused of barbarism. I am the one trying to fight barbarism and all the goody two shoes here dont like that. They apparently would rather have their families at great risk rather than take away freedom from an al quaeda jerk who is bent on blowing himself up at the local school. I cant stand it anymore. Liberty comes at a price. Sometimes you have to fight for it and sometimes you have to fight dirty if your enemy is who ours is.
Imagine telling the warsaw ghetto fighters that use of firebombs violated the geneva convention rules of war and that they should submit to the Auschwitz rather than do such dastardly deeds. Isnt it ironic that many of these same folks today supported the pal terrorists as freedom fighters. I guess when they cut off someones head its somehow different. Mike

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To: michael97123 who wrote (160469)4/14/2005 2:23:25 PM
From: Nadine Carroll
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Imagine telling the warsaw ghetto fighters that use of firebombs violated the geneva convention rules of war and that they should submit to the Auschwitz rather than do such dastardly deeds. Isnt it ironic that many of these same folks today supported the pal terrorists as freedom fighters. I guess when they cut off someones head its somehow different.

Oh, it is different, Mike, it is, it is. You haven't properly absorbed the prevalent multi-culti psychobabble animating the argument. See, when the US of A or Israel doesn't obey the Geneva Conventions to the letter and grant POW status to every captured terrorist, that's a crime against civilization. But when the terrorists saw the heads off women and blow up children, they are expressing their own oppressed cultural norms. Brown oppressed people like them cannot be held to the same standard as civilized white people. That "Orientalism". That's "Colonialism". Bad, bad, bad.

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