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   PoliticsForeign Affairs Discussion Group

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To: Sun Tzu who wrote (150856)11/3/2004 11:01:59 PM
From: Bilow
   of 281500
Hi SunTzu; Re: "I predict that by 2008 we will be sitting on a massive debt and an all time low USD. Social security will be in total shambles."

I agree, but if Kerry had been elected, a pretty much identical result would happen. The economy, with its long term boiling, is more powerful than any president.

Conservatives have been expecting the social security to go bankrupt for decades, along with the crashing dollar and massive debt. What's more, it's happened before.

Re: "Dems will come to power on a platform of social equity and better social services."

Frankly, I'm surprised that they didn't come to power with this election. I think their problem is basically cultural. If the Democrats had managed to cough up a Jimmy Carter, instead of Kerry, they'd probably be celebrating right now. Instead, what they did was to motivate the cultural conservatives to stand around in the rain and vote.

Re: "Those professionals who have not been replaced by Indian and Chinese workers will refuse to pay the higher taxes and will move out of America."

That is ridiculous. This country has been running booms and busts, and trading places between business and labor interests for a couple hundred years. One more swing isn't going to destroy the old girl.

The economy is not healthy, and the Democrats should have won the election. That they did not is due, in my opinion, that they are no longer the party of labor, but instead are the party of social liberalism. To win, the Democrats need to win back the "Reagan Democrats". It's been cultural issues that have driven those voters into Republican hands. Over and over I hear old Democrats talk about how the party abandoned them.

-- Carl

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To: Bilow who wrote (150975)11/3/2004 11:45:55 PM
   of 281500

And correct too - there just one single variance to the two sets -.

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To: J_F_Shepard who wrote (150088)11/4/2004 12:22:58 AM
From: Srexley
   of 281500
"Supplying money to survivors is not supporting terrorism per se...."

A view only shared by those who support terrorism, per se.

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To: Bilow who wrote (150978)11/4/2004 12:31:04 AM
From: Sun Tzu
   of 281500
Hi Carl,

>> I agree, but if Kerry had been elected, a pretty much identical result would happen.

Perhaps, but not as likely. I think Kerry would have spent less on war and would have run a more balanced budget which in turn would have helped the dollar, etc, etc.

>> If the Democrats had managed to cough up a Jimmy Carter

Please don't make me puke! It will be a cold day in hell that I will vote for anyone who'd remind me of that self-righteous, double-dealing, spineless, bastard. He only had the appearance of morality. I take Bush any day over Carter.

>> This country has been running booms and busts, and trading places between business and labor interests for a couple hundred years. One more swing isn't going to destroy the old girl.

I said nothing of America's destruction, though I suspect 10-20 years from now some people will look back at the 80s and 90s and feel America has been completely destroyed. This will be correct in a subjective comparative way but totally false from an objective perspective.

We can do just about anything but change the know what they say about death and taxes...and in fact the most deciding factors will be death and taxes.

BTW, my point about the irreplaceable professionals was simply that this is a very different world than what we have seen over the past couple of centuries simply because worker mobility and market liquidity are greater than ever. As a results, those professionals who remain in high demand will have an easier time relocating to where they are treated best, which I suspect will not be the US...but I could be wrong. It depends on how big of a mess the rest of the world gets into.

>> Democrats should have won the election...

As I pointed out on a different thread today, the candidate who manages to get better than half of the votes in both Texas and New York is on the right track. The rest are just getting lucky based on the flavor of the day, and this includes Bush.


PS My outlook, perhaps naively, excludes the possibility of a WMD going off in US over the next 10-20 years.

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To: Michael Watkins who wrote (150962)11/4/2004 2:59:39 AM
From: Jacob Snyder
   of 281500
78, me too, eom

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To: Michael Watkins who wrote (150942)11/4/2004 3:31:11 AM
From: greenspirit
   of 281500
Sure there are conservatives who agree with you Michael.

I believe they received 1% of the vote in 2000 when Buchanan ran. Good luck convincing any others.

Now, on to the foreign affairs front. It looks like one of our important allies is glad to see Bush re-elected. This bodes well for fighting terrorists wherever they hide.

Putin says Bush win means U.S. not scared of terror

By Andrew Hurst and Paolo Biondi
8:27 a.m. November 3, 2004

MOSCOW – Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday welcomed a victory for George W. Bush in the U.S. presidential race, saying it meant Americans had not allowed themselves to be cowed by terrorists.

"If Bush wins, then I can only feel joy that the American people did not allow itself to be intimidated, and made the most sensible decision," Putin said at a Kremlin news conference after talks with Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi.

Election 2004 photo galleries

He was speaking before Democratic challenger John Kerry conceded victory to Bush in Tuesday's vote.

Ex-KGB agent Putin and former oilman Bush have forged a close relationship that Russian opposition to the U.S.-led war in Iraq has not derailed. They stress their partnership in the struggle against Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda movement.

"I am convinced that international terrorism gave itself the goal of not allowing the re-election of Bush. The statement by bin Laden in the final stages of the pre-election campaign is the best confirmation of this," Putin said.

He was referring to a video statement by bin Laden promising attacks on the United States in retaliation for deaths in Iraq.

Putin sounded a note of caution, however, saying relations between Moscow and Washington would not be plain sailing.

"Relations will not be easy. Between such countries as the United States and Russia with such a scale of mutual obligations, there are always some problems," he said.

"Our relations in the last four years have undergone a big change, for the good of our peoples, of our countries, and for the good of our security," said Putin, adding that he found Bush "a reliable and predictable partner."

"Bush has proved to be a firm man, with a strong character, and a coherent policy."

Italy's Berlusconi predicted that U.S. foreign policy would continue unchanged.

"Bush will continue with the policy that assigns the United States the role of defender and promoter of freedom and democracy," he said at the joint news conference.

"The continuation on Bush's part of American policy represents an advantage for us."

But he also said he believed Bush would have to pursue a multilateral foreign policy in order to pursue the war against international terrorism, establish peace in Iraq and advance the cause of peace in the Middle East.

"I believe that Bush's victory is based also on the favourable economic phase in the United States and on the tax cuts carried out by the administration," Berlusconi added.

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To: unclewest who wrote (150977)11/4/2004 4:39:23 AM
From: Jacob Snyder
   of 281500
<God really has Blessed America!>

All of America, or just the 51% who voted for Bush?

The 48% who voted for Kerry, does God bless them, too? Or must they repent first, and promise never again to vote for anyone who approves of abortion or stem cell research?

Or how about the citizens of Fallujah and Ramadi? Today, God is blessing these cities with incoming artillery and airstrikes, as a direct result of God blessing America with Bush. Men, women, children, God's blessings raining down on them all, with the U.S. military being God's agent on earth, I guess.

We can assume that God isn't blessing Hungary, as of today, since those wimpy sissies are withdrawing from Iraq.

The Pope made it clear who God does and doesn't bless. Bush holds the record, as Governor of Texas, for the most executions. Bush wages a war that doesn't quite meet God's standards (as defined by Catholic doctrine). But Bush gets an audience with the Pope anyway. The Catholics politely forget about their Just War Doctrine, and don't mention their opposition to the death penalty. But.....Kerry supports abortion, and gets denied communion. All life is precious, but some lives are more precious than others. I guess.

God Bless America. We are the Chosen People (and maybe the Israelis too), and God loves us much better than He loves the French and Mexicans and Ethiopians. That's what God meant, in His parable of the Good Samaritan, right?

And our blessed leader talks to God, and the voices tell Bush who needs invading next, and which cities next require the blessing of our artillery and smart bombs. And we are surrounded with the warm glow that comes from certainty and faith and victory. And God blesses us, and blesses our killing. I guess.

Similarly, Maurice responds to another person confused about the difference between worship of God and Nation: Message 20727318

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From: greenspirit11/4/2004 5:21:29 AM
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To all the foreign visitors who enjoy reading this thread. And to any others who are struggling to understand this election and its impact on America's foreign policy. This map, broken down county by county, demonstrates clearer than any words written, how much the American people support President Bush.

Deal with it. This is the real America, not the one you see on CNN in Europe. Not the one you may read in the pages of the N.Y. Times or Washington Post. The real American voices, of which very few post here.

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To: greenspirit who wrote (150985)11/4/2004 7:57:29 AM
From: GST
   of 281500
Half the US wanted to fire Bush -- deal with that. We live in a deeply and profoundly divided country. Nothing has divided this country more bitterly since the days when the country was split over the issue of slavery. What we have to deal with is some of the deepest divisions in the history of this country -- deal with that.

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To: GST who wrote (150986)11/4/2004 8:03:27 AM
From: greenspirit
   of 281500
Still in denial I see. No doubt you will remain that way while the country turns more and more elections into a sea of red, just like this graph describes with crystal clarity.

Now read this and celebrate the big neocon foreign policy victory.

Afghan opposition accepts Karzai's victory
04 Nov 2004 10:10:54 GMT
Source: Reuters

KABUL, Nov 4 (Reuters) - The main rivals of Afghan President Hamid Karzai swallowed their bitterness on Thursday over cases of vote fraud and accepted defeat a day after a U.N.-Afghan election panel declared Karzai the winner of a historic Oct. 9 election.

On polling day, Karzai's opposition threatened to refuse to recognise the result after its representatives reported a host of irregularities at polling stations, but subsequently agreed to wait for the results of an independent investigation.

"We all have come to the conclusion to accept the result of the election for the sake of the nation's interest, despite the existence of fraud," Yunus Qanuni, the runner-up, told journalists at Kabul's Intercontinental Hotel.

An independent panel of election experts said this week there had been definite cases of vote fraud, including ballot stuffing, but the scale was insufficient to alter the result and unlawful votes had not favoured any particular candidate.

The election is seen as a watershed, with many Afghans hoping it marks the beginning of the end of a quarter century of conflict that spanned Soviet occupation, civil war, Taliban militia rule and a subsequent insurgency fought by the Taliban and its allies against U.S.-led forces and the Afghan army.

As he spoke, Qanuni, a champion of an ethnic Tajik faction, was flanked by other beaten candidates, including ethnic Hazara leader Mohammad Mohaqiq, and a representative of Uzbek General Abdul Rashid Dostum.

Karzai, who has headed an interim government set up after U.S. and Afghan resistance forces overthrew the Taliban militia three years ago, polled 55 percent of the vote to Qanuni's 16 percent, with the rest split among 16 other candidates.

Diplomats say Karzai's rivals began climbing down from their threatened boycott once they realised the scale of the enthusiasm with which Afghans had come out to vote in the country's first election of a leader through direct and secret ballot.

The turnout was more than eight million, but the panel of experts has called for an immediate review of the register of voters before parliamentary elections next April.

The break-up of the vote revealed Afghanistan's stark ethnic and regional divides, raising concern over how Karzai can reach out to non-Pashtun minorities when it comes to forming a cabinet.

He has ruled out forming a coalition government to include rivals. Qanuni, a former education minister, is expected to press for some national role.

But diplomats say the front man for a Tajik faction rooted in the Panjsher Valley northeast of Kabul has hard choices to make.

"Qanuni will have to make up his mind what he wants before he can ask for anything," remarked one Western diplomat.

Diplomats expect both Dostum and Mohaqiq to be cited in various human rights reports due out in the coming weeks, for actions going back to the conflict years.

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