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To: stockman_scott who wrote (150956)11/3/2004 9:34:16 PM
From: Michael Watkins
   of 281500
 
This is a good summary of countries with second thoughts. Good friends do not leave your side when the cause is actually just, so you can surmise that a dozen former allies now believe the Iraq war is unjust.

Perhaps their leaders and people aren't drinking from the same Kool-Aid pitcher that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz serve from...

That's 11 countries eliminating or almost eliminating their contribution to Iraq.

This is what happens when you lie to the people. Perhaps 52% in America don't pay attention to facts, but the rest of the world increasingly seems to be.

-------
Hungary Joins Parade of Troops Leaving

By JUDY DEMPSEY,
International Herald Tribune

Published: November 4, 2004

BERLIN, Nov. 3 - Hungary announced Wednesday that it would withdraw its 300 troops from Iraq, becoming the latest country in United States-led coalition to bow to public pressure and prepare to bring its soldiers home.

Speaking at a ceremony for the end of military conscription, the newly appointed prime minister, Ferenc Gyurcsany, said Hungary was obliged to stay until the Iraqi elections scheduled for January, but would withdraw the troops by March.

"To stay longer is an impossibility," said Mr. Gyurcsany (pronounced JOR-chahn-ee).

The United States had persuaded 32 countries to provide 22,000 soldiers as part of the multinational force established to stabilize postwar Iraq. But over the last few months, a number of countries have withdrawn, some citing the cost but others concerned about security, and many governments face increasing public opposition to the war.

Spain's Socialist government withdrew its 1,300 troops after it swept into power last March, reversing the commitment of the prior center-right government of Prime Minister José María Aznar. The Dominican Republic withdrew 302 soldiers, Nicaragua 115 and Honduras 370. The Philippines withdrew its 51 in July, a month early, after insurgents took hostage a Filipino truck driver working for a Saudi company. Norway withdrew 155 military engineers, keeping only 15 staff members to help NATO train and equip the Iraqi security forces.

Two large contributors to the international force - Britain, with 12,000 troops, and Italy, with more than 3,100 - have insisted they will not withdraw. But Poland, the fourth-largest contributor, with 2,400 troops, says it intends to withdraw by the end of next year, and the Netherlands, with 1,400 troops, said this week that the latest rotation of troops would be its last contribution to Iraq.

New Zealand is withdrawing its 60 engineers and Thailand said it wanted to bring home its 450 troops. Singapore has reduced its contingent to 33, from 191; Moldova has trimmed its force to 12, from 42. On Wednesday Bulgaria's Defense Ministry said it would reduce its 483 troops to 430 next month, Reuters reported.

Iraq's interim government had asked Hungary to keep its troops in the country for another year. But Peter Matyuc, a spokesman for the Defense Ministry, said in a statement that the government would ask Parliament on Monday to extend the troops' mandate by only three months.

"By March 31, 2005, we will bring our troops back from Iraq," Mr. Gyurcsany said. "From then on, the existence of a stable democratic and safe Iraq has to be created by different means, above all political means.''

In a letter signed in January 2003, Hungary joined ranks with Poland, the Czech Republic, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Denmark and Britain in endorsing the Bush administration's willingness to use force to disarm Iraq, a move that deepened Europe's divisions over Iraq. A ninth country, Slovakia, signed the letter later. That first letter was followed by another signed by 10 more countries.

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld added to the divisions by describing those governments that opposed military intervention - notably France and Germany - as Old Europe and those who supported Washington as New Europe.

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To: stockman_scott who wrote (150956)11/3/2004 9:43:39 PM
From: Ish
   of 281500
 
<<There are at least four titanic "reality-based" problems that this "faith-based" President now confronts.>>

The election is over. He picks his problems now.

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To: Michael Watkins who wrote (150960)11/3/2004 9:47:13 PM
From: Ish
   of 281500
 
<<Ignored Message>>

So you get attacked with no chance to respond? Sounds dumb to me.

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To: Ish who wrote (150969)11/3/2004 9:50:50 PM
From: jlallen
   of 281500
 
LOL!!

Its the cowards way......

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To: jlallen who wrote (150970)11/3/2004 9:52:27 PM
From: Ish
   of 281500
 
Sounds dumb to me. Piss in their boot and they don't know to pour it out.

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To: Ish who wrote (150971)11/3/2004 10:07:59 PM
From: jlallen
   of 281500
 
Most pinheads are not real bright.....its almost a prerequisite I think.....

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To: TigerPaw who wrote (150186)11/3/2004 10:09:23 PM
From: Bilow
   of 281500
 
Hi Tigerpaw; Re: "The media polls have a bias toward the appearance of a close race. This keeps more viewers tuned in. Kerry has been ahead for weeks, but the polls have used a skewed ratio of Republican/Democrat percentages to weight their poll. They didn't want the race to appear to be a blowout or people wouldn't watch their TV all day. ..."

I heard the same thing, or variations, from a lot of liberal friends. Like I've said before, people believe pretty much what they want to believe. They can explain away huge amounts of evidence to the contrary.

It was this same very human deficit that explains why Bush went into Iraq in the first place.

-- Carl

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To: TigerPaw who wrote (150241)11/3/2004 10:14:12 PM
From: Jagfan
   of 281500
 
Gee TP, you sound disenfranchised. Are you a felon?

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To: Jim Willie CB who wrote (150294)11/3/2004 10:23:13 PM
From: Bilow
   of 281500
 
Hi Jim Willie CB; Re: "... 3% margin of error individually means 4.24% margin of error for the difference ..."

This simply isn't true. You're failing to take into account the obvious fact that among any individual who happens to be in your poll, there is a nearly perfect inverse correlation between votes for Kerry and votes for Bush. Consequently, you can't add percentages with the square root scaling law that applies to differences of independent random variables.

In other words, the sample sets for the two measurements, the Bush vote and the difference vote, are not independent measurements. They are almost perfectly correlated.

Neocon, miraculously, is correct despite his not having studied statistics. If there is a 3% margin of error on the vote for Bush, and the vote is approximately 50% each, then there will be a 6% margin of error in the vote difference between Bush and Kerry.

Hey, you could use the 4.24% figure if you were using different sample sets for the two measurements, but you're not.

-- Carl

P.S. I did study statistics, among other things.

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To: Ish who wrote (150969)11/3/2004 10:26:28 PM
From: Michael Watkins
   of 281500
 
So you get attacked with no chance to respond? Sounds dumb to me.

You've got to be kidding... you consider anything he writes an "attack"?

Its purely grade school stuff, and simply not worth the time reading much less responding.

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