| To: Suma who wrote (143936) | 8/24/2004 2:55:37 PM | | From: one_less | | | | | The period was anti-establishment. Young adults in the mainstream were experiencing illegal recreational drug use for the first time. The government was publishing propaganda documents that over stated or mis-stated the dangers of using pot etc. This fueled a mis-trust of the establishment. The entire generation experienced the things mentioned by kerry. It was very traumatic and stressful to all involved. The Viet Nam conflict happened to fall into the period and got swept up in the governments mis-representations and in the over reaction from a generation of un-seasoned young adults. Many of the Viet Nam Vets went through the very same experience non-military youth of the time went through but pointed their anti-establishment zeal at the war. This is a great opportunity to look back and take a reality check. |
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| To: Suma who wrote (143936) | 8/24/2004 3:05:52 PM | | From: michael97123 | | | | Suma,
What always struck me as interesting was that the culture on the war front mirrored that on the home front---drugs, sex and rock n roll. One vet who i have a contentious relationship with here on SI, told me yesterday that Country Joe and the Fish's anti war song was what he and his fellow soldiers sung in vietnam while in combat. And those of us who protested sang it while protesting. I think that today there is a far greater cultural divide between prof soldier and civilian that existed then. I am sure that has to do with the lack of a draft today. Mike |
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| To: GST who wrote (143938) | 8/24/2004 3:06:47 PM | | From: Suma | | | | As a counselor in a high school where the young men were registered in the draft I had first hand experience in their quandary about the war. It was at the time when it became increasingly more evident that it was not a war that could be won. There were thousands of protesters marching on Washington. It was a time when our Nation was very divided...
Some of my students became Conscientious Objectors. Others left for Canada... Some went to fight.
Unless one has lived through that period it is not easy to explain it..
I read almost every book after the war that was written on Viet Nam... Sheehan and others. I lived through the battles vicariously. Our men were heros if for no other reason they were fighting an unseen enemy. The pathos of that war and it's concomitant results left a lot of disillusionment amongst our young men.
Now, we try to go back 30 years and pick up the tenor that that time.. This is why I cannot fault Kerry. He was a product of the times.. He acted on the conditions of that time and to condemn him now for his bravely in even going to that war and fighting is abhorrent to me.
TIMES CHANGE, PEOPLE CHANGE...and they regret a lot of things that they did in their past. One has to know what kinds of feelings were being generated in that past to even accurately discuss it. |
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| To: Suma who wrote (143941) | 8/24/2004 3:11:04 PM | | From: GST | | | | | Yes, it was a very confusing and divisive time. We have not seen anything like it until the invasion of Iraq. We make a consistent ,mistake -- we fail to hold our foreign policy up to scrutiny and then we waste most of our time and energy arguing over the wars that result from those policies -- never properly testing the policies themselves. |
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| To: GST who wrote (143943) | 8/24/2004 3:18:36 PM | | From: michael97123 | | | | Sorry GST but that wont sell.
There is no draft and that has minimized opposition. Most folks today were/are for the war but critical of how its been run. Rummy should have been fired long ago and thats from someone like me who likes him.
The real debate now is whether we have a better chance of attaining some or most of our goals by staying or leaving. Which gives the new government a better chance to survive in the intermediate run. In the short run they need us but i am thinking that after the election, the decision will be made that we create more ill well by staying and that to give the alawi regime a fair shot, we should arm em, supply em and get out of their way. And pray a bit too. Mike |
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| To: one_less who wrote (143939) | 8/24/2004 3:19:27 PM | | From: GST | | | | It is also a good time to reflect on what we are doing now, and the values that are being shaped by our leadership:
<Legal net widens in Iraq prison abuse scandal
22 minutes ago Add Mideast - AFP to My Yahoo!
MANNHEIM, Germany (AFP) - A US prosecutor acknowledged that charges were being prepared against senior US military intelligence officers and other staff over abuses committed against inmates at Iraq (news - web sites)'s notorious Abu Ghraib prison.>
news.yahoo.com |
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| To: michael97123 who wrote (143944) | 8/24/2004 3:22:04 PM | | From: GST | | | | | Whether we stay or go, our foreign policy needs review. That is the bigger picture. That is what got us into Iraq. That is what will guide us in the future. We need to focus more on policy and less on piecemeal, partisan wrangling. |
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| To: GST who wrote (143932) | 8/24/2004 3:30:04 PM | | From: SBHX | | | | the troops were doing their job, and yes, some did it dishonorably.
It is not often that in this age of civil liberties that such a large segment of the best human beings america had to offer can be smeared with such a wide brush as you just did. The fact is, the vast majority of people who served did so honorably.
Were there atrocities? How can there be a war without atrocities? Of course there were atrocities. Were the perpetrators punished? As far as I can tell, whether in Korea or Vietnam, often it is the West with our insistence on a system of transparency that the perpetrators of atrocities can be brought to justice.
In the case of Vietnam, it appears the viet cong perpetrators can and do get away. I have no doubt some of the very vietcongs that disembowelled and massacred entire families (and yes, babies too) do retire and spend the rest of their lives as heroes, celebrated and loved by their people.
washtimes.com
The Vietnam war was unique for the US as the soldiers who served their country, the vast majority of whom are decent human beings, returned to a life of shame and ridicule.
When John Kerry and others around him stood up and spoke glowingly about patrolling a river with courage, many remember the pain of what he and others said in the anti-war crusade that followed.
Vietnam veterans returned to a country that thought they were baby killers. Thousands never recovered and lived wasted lives. For many people of that generation, John Kerry's action is the epitome of the very core of lies and hurt that destroyed the lives of their friends and loved ones.
Of all I read so far, this is the letter that stuck in my mind:
Don Bendell wrote to Kerry in an open letter over the Internet, "My children and grandchildren could read your words, and think those horrendous things about me. ... You have dishonored me and all my fellow Vietnam veterans."
John Kerry, your words and actions caused children to think that their fathers burnt villages and made grandchildren think their grandpa killed babies.
For this, there will be always people who remembered what you said and what you did.
For this, there is no forgiveness. |
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| To: GST who wrote (143943) | 8/24/2004 3:33:25 PM | | From: Sig | | | | <<Yes, it was a very confusing and divisive time. We have not seen anything like it until the invasion of Iraq.>>
Now that you mention it I too am beginning to see the resemblance of Iraq to Viet Nam.
The Communist Nations sending hordes of soldiers and arms under jungle cover to the region, women and children taking up arms to fight our tanks and gun-ships, men living on a bowl of rice per day, hiding in the jungles and rice paddies to ambush our patrols. Tens of thousands of US casualties, and the loss of many hundreds of helicopters.
The comparison is just a bit foggy yet to me, but am sure that after several years or decades it will become clearer.
Sig |
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