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   PoliticsWar


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To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (2975)8/29/2001 7:11:00 PM
From: Thomas M.
   of 23168
 
I'm not sure why that article is so focused on Arafat. The onus for peace should be on the occupying power, Israel, which is currently expanding its occupation. This illegal and willfully malicious occupation, specifically designed to break up the Palestinian population into fragments, is the primary source of violence.

Tom

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To: GUSTAVE JAEGER who wrote (2963)8/29/2001 8:12:28 PM
From: Andy Thomas
   of 23168
 
couldn't israel gain more people simply by offering citizenship to the palestinians? the israelis could say to the palestinians, "you convert to judaism, you're an israeli..."

problem solved...

andy

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To: Thomas M. who wrote (2977)8/29/2001 8:14:18 PM
From: Nadine Carroll
   of 23168
 
The article is focused on Arafat because he is calling the shots in the PA. Because he was negotiating with Israel under the Oslo framework about ending the occupation. Israel had just offered 95% of West Bank back, far exceeding previous offers, and Arafat responded, not with a counter-offer, but with a terrorist campaign.

Arafat ordered this war, either directly or with a nudge, nudge, wink, wink, leave the country act to Fatah and the Tanzim. This is not just an Israeli line -- Prof. Sayigh says so too. This is not an "intifada", a spontaneous uprising, but a war of Arafat's choosing, and a highly disfunctional war at that. This puts the onus squarely on Arafat.

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To: Thomas M. who wrote (2977)8/29/2001 8:19:21 PM
From: goldsnow
   of 23168
 
"As far as I am aware, the overview of the conflict from the PLO's...beginning of its war of national liberation against Israel in 1965 to the present has not been approximated in the literature on the Arab-Israeli conflict. It is important that the character and duration of this long war be understood. Much of the governmental, popular and media reaction to the Israeli action in this conflict has reflected a failure to recognize that the conflict is not a series of violent episodes, to be judged individually, but a continuous war that varies in intensity but never stops."
- from Law And Morality In Israel's War With The PLO, by William V. O'Brien, Professor of Government at Georgetown University

yahoodi.com

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To: Andy Thomas who wrote (2978)8/29/2001 8:24:58 PM
From: Nadine Carroll
   of 23168
 
LOL, that's a non-starter. Besides, there's no religious requirement for Israeli citizenship -- 20% of Israelis are Arabs, and they're Muslim or Christian.

Israel's real existential problem, which it's still trying to avoid, is: Do you want to be a Jewish State or a Democracy? Choose one.

They very badly want to remain both, which is why they never dared to annex the West Bank, which would have avoided the problems of the occupation. By 2020, Arabs will be a majority in the area of Israel plus the territories.

The poor Palestinians have had their noses pressed to the glass of Israeli democracy for 30 years, and they never got any. Not that they are ever going to get any under their sorry excuse for leadership, either.

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To: Thomas M. who wrote (2977)8/29/2001 8:27:27 PM
From: goldsnow
   of 23168
 
"For the man whose knowledge is not in order, the more he has of it, the greater will be his confusion." - Herbert Spencer (1820-1923)
FOR DECADES, THE UNITED NATIONS, A SUCCESSION OF EUROPEAN BODIES, THE ARAB LEAGUE, NON-ALIGNED MOVEMENT AND ORGANISATION OF AFRICAN UNITY HAVE CHURNED OUT THE TIRED MAXIM THAT THE PALESTINIAN QUESTION IS CENTRAL TO PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST. LET'S HELP SLAUGHTER THAT HOLY COW.
ALTHOUGH Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait in 1990 and the subsequent Gulf War went a long way towards destroying the myth of Palestinian centrality to the Mideast conflict, some have sought to blame even THAT intra-Arab conflict on Israel.

cdn-friends-icej.ca

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To: goldsnow who wrote (2980)8/30/2001 1:05:33 AM
From: Thomas M.
   of 23168
 
That's quite a website. On first glance, I notice they state authoritatively that the 1967 war was started by Arabs. Next!

Tom

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To: goldsnow who wrote (2982)8/30/2001 1:12:35 AM
From: Thomas M.
   of 23168
 
Well, that is certainly true. Oil has been a major source of conflict.

Tom

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To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (2971)8/30/2001 4:19:41 AM
From: GUSTAVE JAEGER
   of 23168
 
Re: Do you seriously see no difference between sending 10 year-old rock throwers to the front lines to become shahids and sending 19 year-old soldiers on patrol duty?

Oh sure, I can see the difference: footages of the formers are broadcast round-the-clock by Western networks whereas the fanaticism of the latters is cleverly, smoothly removed from news coverages on Israel's teenage troops... To quibble over 12-year-olds vs 20-somethings is futile indeed. It's clear that the Jewish population and the Palestinians don't have the same demographics and I bet you that were the average age of Israelis to be as low as Palestinians's, the IDF would likely resemble Napoleon's army (whose staff was made up of 25-year-old generals...)

Gus.

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To: Thomas M. who wrote (2965)8/30/2001 4:36:14 AM
From: GUSTAVE JAEGER
   of 23168
 
Re: "In Israel, serving in certain army units is your ticket to good positions in civilian life," said Naomi Chazan, a left-wing member of the Knesset,...

What's even more interesting in the above snippet is that it exposes the stratocratic nature of Israel: indeed, there's no civil society proper in Israel. Israeli corporations are merely an outlet for military retirees, offering them various executive jobs and busywork depending on their past career in the IDF.

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