| To: Frank A. Coluccio who wrote (41238) | 8/10/2012 1:49:26 PM | | From: LindyBill | | | | Floating wind technology
I am so sick of seeing Billions wasted on energy fairy tales. Get out of the way of the energy companies and let them build what they can make the biggest profit on. It's probably would be gas fired, but I leave it them, not the Pols who couldn't run a hot dog stand at a profit. |
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| From: axial | 8/10/2012 1:52:21 PM | | | | | | What soap and the smart grid have in common
'But efforts to improve consumer perceptions around the deployment of the smart grid, in particular smart meters, have mostly fallen flat. Compound that messaging failure with consumers’ suspicions that utilities want to take their personal control away, while simultaneously invading their privacy and poisoning them with radio frequency emissions, and the situation looks discouraging. One conclusion is that commercial, utility and advocacy organizations that support smart grid roll-outs have simply not demonstrated that their efforts will benefit the causes that consumers support. What’s more, customers feel that messages about cost savings and enhanced efficiency opportunities are inauthentic, as many have already taken measures to reduce their electricity consumption during times of economic hardship.
The Smart Grid Consumer Collaborative’s Pulse Wave 2 Study, suggests that there are two key messages that could raise the level of support for the smart grid among consumers:
- Smart grid projects will create tens of thousands of jobs and bring an estimated $12 billion to the U.S. economy in the next two years.
- Many components of our electricity grid are decades old and wearing out. Replacing them with smarter technology in a timely way will help ensure the consistent power delivery we depend on.'
gigaom.com
Jim |
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| To: axial who wrote (41240) | 8/10/2012 2:30:38 PM | | From: Frank A. Coluccio | | | | Re: Smart grid projects will create tens of thousands of jobs...
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I must be missing something here. An automation project that "creates" more jobs than it eliminates? Perhaps for a brief moment in time, but those jobs are not very sustainable, at least not intrinsically. Yes, a more reliable grid has positive economic implications, but may also have an equally disruptive effect that results in dislocations. In any case, lasting results don't manifest immediately. This calls to mind the jobs increases that were predicted by proponents of broadband stimulus initiatives. But hey, if that's what it takes to appeal to the consumer (just as the soap producers would do), why not, eh?
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| To: Frank A. Coluccio who wrote (41241) | 8/10/2012 3:52:49 PM | | From: axial | | | | Exactly. You nailed it.
This is but one example of many, where spin contradicts reality. On another list, I sent a link to the declining number of news reporters, accompanied by a parallel rise in corporate PR agents.
And as we become increasingly tethered to telecomms, our daily existence, our habits, our friends, our business meetings, our pleasures and communications become an open book to those with the clout to assemble the data, and weave it together.
Brave new world.
Jim |
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| To: Frank A. Coluccio who wrote (41241) | 8/10/2012 4:36:00 PM | | From: deeno | | | | Well certianly 10's of thousands may be a stretch, but lets see. I think we would agree that if everyone in the world needs a new meter that should ramp production and needs for a few more years. beef up those production lines. We eliminate meter readers, however many that might be. So what else? MTBF, well you'd think the new ones would be more reliable, but I never have had my old meter replaced or know anyone that did. Where as computers seem to always need tweaking and new chips and upgrades, so Im thinking you add a bunch of new techies to run around. EVERY home in america with networking? at least when my cables out I CALL them for help. so a BUNCH of network experts, a few tech support hotlines. Need to intergrate this new info into the systems so retrain or hire staff to support for the long run. New info? what else can we do with it? Maybe a new reseach department? They ever do much to "upgrade" software on the old stuff? will now. Beef up that complaint department NO on likes change.
Long term production, well I just dont know, but the industry does exist. if it was one meter and done, it wouldnt have lasted this long, so I would think they would be equal. Now you might see a more permanet ramp if you think, next water meters, next gas meters, internet meters, alt energy gauges, processs control equipment. Hell maybe trash meters, insurance meters and CO2 meters. There might be displacement, but yes I could see more employment. Remember Utilities are limited in what they can make so any real efficiencies may very well go into more people. Or at least higher pensions.
now let me ask this. In reading about curiosity on Mars it said it was neuclear powered. that true? |
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| To: mistermj who wrote (41245) | 8/10/2012 11:33:56 PM | | From: pltodms | | | | "generated electricity is now a flop on two planets"
Isn't the solar powered Opportunity Rover still operating after so many years?
I'm not against any of these technologies (nuclear, solar, etc.) as long they do the job they are intended to do, efficiently. It seems that Opportunity met its goals and then some, along with its sister Rover.
WRT, the social dynamics for job creation vis a vis automation that's a much more complicated story. I'm not sure that automation in itself takes away jobs over the long term. With the right policies it could engender new opportunities for job creation. This is a societal question and this forum may not be the best venue to address it in. Not that I have any answers for it. |
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| To: pltodms who wrote (41246) | 8/11/2012 12:03:45 AM | | From: mistermj | | | | | It operates when the winds of mars are nice enough to blow the dust off the solar panels.Otherwise not so much. |
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| To: mistermj who wrote (41245) | 8/11/2012 12:32:57 PM | | From: Frank A. Coluccio | | | | Hi mistermj,
I agree, PV is not the optimal solution for the application at hand, i.e., powering Mars rovers, but to call the technology a failure in space ignores decades of success that made the satellite age possible, not to mention myriad other apps.
On earth? Let's be real. I agree wholeheartedly that, to date, pv's use by utilities for base load generation is a joke, as is the case when it's used to supplement large installations, such as Internet data centers, where I tend to view it as an opportunistic, gratuitous solution, at best. What price PR, and its growth agent, social corporate responsibility?
But let's not ignore it's success, and the promise it holds, for billions of inhabitants on the planet whose abodes do not align with current (or even planned) gross national grid transmission and distribution networks. In such situations a small local collector that feeds a battery (and perhaps an inverter) can make the difference between basic electrical needs, including a single light bulb; communicating with the rest if the globe, and utter darkness, both literally and figuratively.
As for the dust storms on Mars, good point. The problem has been recognized for decades, as the abstract below, taken from an IEEE paper written in 1990 demonstrates:
Paper: Design considerations for Mars photovoltaic systems: tinyurl.com
ABSTRACT
Considerations for operation of a photovoltaic power system on Mars are discussed with reference to Viking Lander data. The average solar insolation on Mars is 590 W/m2, which is reduced yet further by atmospheric dust. Of major concern are dust storms, which have been observed to occur on local as well as on global scales, and their effect on solar array output. While atmospheric opacity may rise to values ranging from three to nine, depending on storm severity, there is still an appreciable large diffuse illumination, even at high opacities so that photovoltaic operation is still possible. If the power system is to continue to generate power even on high-optical-opacity (i.e. dusty atmosphere) days, it is important that the photovoltaic system be designed to collect diffuse irradiance as well as direct. Energy storage will be required for operation during the night. Temperature and wind provide additional considerations for array design.
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I've not researched this further, but I would imagine that ultrasonics might be used here to dislodge, or prevent, buildup when dust is detected. Then again, doing so would detract from the existing power budget. Tradeoffs.
A similar problem has existed with the design of free space optical systems following snowfalls, which most vendors now address with heating elements to melt the snow.
FAC
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