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   PastimesDISCUSSION OF DOCTRINE of CHRISTIAN CHURCHES


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To: LLCF who wrote (425)3/27/2010 2:40:53 PM
From: Sidney Reilly
   of 454
 
I don't know what you're asking. That's why I didn't answer them. Maybe if you were more clear I could.

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To: Sidney Reilly who wrote (426)3/28/2010 12:18:55 PM
From: LLCF
   of 454
 
Not clear? Which part isn't clear?

Message 26416603

For example:

What is the "one true church"? Or what do you mean by that?

What do you mean by Jesus returning to a spotless church?

Seems pretty straightforward.

DAK

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To: LLCF who wrote (427)3/28/2010 10:02:07 PM
From: Sidney Reilly
   of 454
 
I answered your questions in my earlier post. The one true church are the true believers all across the world from every denomination.

A spotless church is one that has been purged by tribulation from sin, divisions, and the love of the world.

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To: Sidney Reilly who wrote (428)3/28/2010 10:55:00 PM
From: LLCF
   of 454
 
<<I answered your questions in my earlier post. >>

Maybe it didn't get posted... all I see is you saying you didn't:

""I don't know what you're asking. That's why I didn't answer them.""

<The one true church are the true believers all across the world from every denomination. >

So only Christians... dunno if that makes any sense to me, but I hear you.

<A spotless church is one that has been purged by tribulation from sin, divisions, and the love of the world.>

You mean an actual denomination, church, or group... or just whoever is "holy"?

DAK

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To: LLCF who wrote (429)3/28/2010 11:33:01 PM
From: Sidney Reilly
   of 454
 
Yes only the saved or born again believers are the true church. A lot of people call themselves Christians but are not and have never met Jesus. When Jesus comes to gather His spotless church he will sort it out.

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To: Sidney Reilly who wrote (417)12/15/2010 2:43:25 PM
From: Stan
   of 454
 
I am a fan of Irenaeus. I read his Against Heresies a couple of years ago. The first couple of books were really hard. I had to find a legend on the internet to track the system of the Gnostic gods he was refuting. The last couple of books were great insights to the kingdom and Antichrist, end times, etc. His hermeneutical method was fascinating and enlightening, Midrashic it seems to me. For example, how he compares Mary to Eve in that they were both virgins when they did their respective acts. Eve sinned as a virgin, Mary obeyed as a virgin. Or how he displays that Adam was taken from virginal soil, that is, before any seed was sown in the ground as Gen 2:5,6 says; and comparing that again to Jesus' mother who also had no seed put in her by man so that Jesus could also be born from "virginal soil," so as to recapitulate Adam and his race by a similarity of origins.

I recommend Christians familiarize themselves with the ancient writers such as Irenaeus or Justin Martyr to see how the faith sounded in their mouths, who were so fresh from the apostolic age. We'll be humbled by their practically encyclopedic knowledge of Scripture and how they were able to both present the faith for the edification of the believers as well as how they refuted the philosophies of their day.

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To: Stan who wrote (431)12/21/2010 2:56:15 PM
From: Stan
   of 454
 
Irenaeus on Antichrist's number: (Against Heresies: Book 5, chapter 30)

Chapter XXX.-Although Certain as to the Number of the Name of Antichrist, Yet We Should Come to No Rash Conclusions as to the Name Itself, Because This Number is Capable of Being Fitted to Many Names. Reasons for This Point Being Reserved by the Holy Spirit. Antichrist's Reign and Death.

1. Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end),-I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. [I am inclined to think that this occurred through the fault of the copyists, as is wont to happen, since numbers also are expressed by letters; so that the Greek letter which expresses the number sixty was easily expanded into the letter Iota of the Greeks.] Others then received this reading without examination; some in their simplicity, and upon their own responsibility, making use of this number expressing one decad; while some, in their inexperience, have ventured to seek out a name which should contain the erroneous and spurious number. Now, as regards those who have done this in simplicity, and without evil intent, we are at liberty to assume that pardon will be granted them by God. But as for those who, for the sake of vainglory, lay it down for certain that names containing the spurious number are to be accepted, and affirm that this name, hit upon by themselves, is that of him who is to come; such persons shall not come forth without loss, because they have led into error both themselves and those who confided in them. Now, in the first place, it is loss to wander from the truth, and to imagine that as being the case which is not; then again, as there shall be no light punishment [inflicted] upon him who either adds or subtracts anything from the Scripture, under that such a person must necessarily fall. Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against.

2. These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation. This, too, the apostle affirms: "When they shall say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them." And Jeremiah does not merely point out his sudden coming, but he even indicates the tribe from which he shall come, where he says, "We shall hear the voice of his swift horses from Dan; the whole earth shall be moved by the voice of the neighing of his galloping horses: he shall also come and devour the earth, and the fulness thereof, the city also, and they that dwell therein." This, too, is the reason that this tribe is not reckoned in the Apocalypse along with those which are saved.

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From: Stan12/21/2010 5:07:42 PM
   of 454
 
One thing I have found, to my surprise, is that if you read the very early fathers/elders of the church, the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture is totally absent from their writings. Yet, I had accepted its strong probability for a long time. It isn't that those early writers ignored the subject of the resurrection and end times. In fact, it was a common topic in their works. It has to set you thinking. How in the world would they not know of the pretrib rapture/resurrection if that is what the apostles taught? I simply cannot imagine that's possible. One is forced to conclude the doctrine is an innovation.

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To: Stan who wrote (433)12/21/2010 10:18:36 PM
From: Sidney Reilly
   of 454
 
Jesus gives us an explanation of Daniel's 70th week in Matt. 24:1-31 and Jesus definitely says He gathers the elect AFTER the great tribulation. This is virtually ignored by the "pretrib" church today.

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To: Sidney Reilly who wrote (434)12/21/2010 10:38:10 PM
From: Stan
   of 454
 
Yes, and Martha, in responding to Jesus' statement, your brother shall rise again, says, yes, I know he will rise on the last day. Somehow, the last day got stretched into at least a 7 year period in pre-trib logic.

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