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A US National Health Care System?
An SI Board Since January 2005
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Emcee:  Peter Dierks Type:  Moderated
"The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen."

Note: Subject actually started by Lazarus Long.

Would the US be better off with a national single payer (other) health system? Or should the current system be left alone or even pushed more towards getting the gov’t out?

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CBO report on the actual extimated costs of Obama/Pelosi-Care
Message 28321693

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On Retail Health Clinics:
Message 26387802

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A nationalized health care system isn't a cure-all. It's EASY to come up with countries that have such that do worse than those without.

Public health measures can be worth more than all the docs in the country. Clean water supply eliminates many diseases. Air and water pollution cause disease.

Training of docs counts.

Location of country counts. Cold = no (or fewer for less time) mosquitoes = no malaria – a leading killer.

Habits count. US obesity epidemic is arguably an educational problem, not a medical one.
observer.guardian.co.uk

US has done more than many countries to curtail smoking. It is still common in Europe and Japan.

Obesity and smoking arguably cause self induced disease. Is it fair to hold others accountable for one’s one sloppiness and ignorance?

Immigration and its source affect a country’s morbidity and mortality rates. Ill-educated low income migrants can pull them down; well educated high income migrants pull them up. How do Canada and Europe compare to the US here?

The legal system is important in determining costs. US system allows large damages for innocent and unknown mistakes by docs and pharmas; othere countries don’t. Pharmas can sell drugs for less because of lower legal risk.

“Free” resources (or those were the real cost has been shifted on to someone else at gunpoint by the gov’t) tend to be overused. This SAME criticism can be made of employer provided health insurance in the US- -it looks free to the employee; in fact, it comes out of pay he would have gotten.

On Cuba:
Message 26361873
Pictures of a modern Cuban medical facility:
Message 26418009

CIA Factbook:
cia.gov

Canada Health Act
hc-sc.gc.ca

Canada: life expectancy at birth: 79.96 years
infant mortality: 5.3 deaths per 1,000 live births
statcan.ca

US life expectancy
cdc.gov

life expectancy at birth: 77.2 years
infant mortality: 7.0 per 1,000 live births

International comparisons of infant mortality are compromised by a lack of standardization with regard to birth registration practices.
collection.nlc-bnc.ca

Lots of statistics on infant mortality:
marchofdimes.com

U.S. lobbies notwithstanding, Canada’s health care is superior
worldpolicy.org

The other side:
The Fraser Institute, a Vancouver, B.C.-based think tank, has done yeoman's work keeping track of Canada's socialized health-care system. It has just come out with its 13th annual waiting-list survey. It shows that the average time a patient waited between referral from a general practitioner to treatment rose from 16.5 weeks in 2001-02 to 17.7 weeks in 2003. Saskatchewan had the longest average waiting time of nearly 30 weeks, while Ontario had the shortest, 14 weeks.
Waiting lists also exist for diagnostic procedures such as computer tomography (CT), magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and ultrasound. Depending on what province and the particular diagnostic procedure, the waiting times can range from two to 24 weeks.

As reported in a December 2003 story by Kerri Houston for the Frontiers of Freedom Institute titled "Access Denied: Canada's Healthcare System Turns Patients Into Victims," in some instances, patients die on the waiting list because they become too sick to tolerate a procedure. Houston says that hip-replacement patients often end up non-ambulatory while waiting an average of 20 weeks for the procedure, and that's after having waited 13 weeks just to see the specialist. The wait to get diagnostic scans followed by the wait for the radiologist to read them just might explain why Cleveland, Ohio, has become Canada's hip-replacement center.

Adding to Canada's medical problems is the exodus of doctors. According to a March 2003 story in Canada News (www.canoe.ca), about 10,000 doctors left Canada during the 1990s. Compounding the exodus of doctors is the drop in medical school graduates. According to Houston, Ontario has chosen to turn to nurses to replace its bolting doctors. It's "creating" 369 new positions for nurse practitioners to take up the slack for the doctor shortage.

townhall.com

mortality expectations not affected in Canada by income levels
pubmedcentral.nih.gov

OTOH,
Canadians have higher death risk than Americans after heart attack
mediresource.sympatico.ca.

In Canada, the most recent childhood cancer survival data, from 1995-96, demonstrate one-year survival rates of over 90%, three-year survival rates of over 80% and an estimated five-year survival rate of 75%
phac-aspc.gc.ca

U.S. Cancer Survival Rates Improving
……………………………………………
the five-year survival rate for all cancers is 63 percent. And for those cancers detected early through screening programs, the survival rate is 84 percent.
healthfinder.gov

Health, Canada, and Drugs:
Message 20639042
Message 20751070

And let us not forget the US DOES in fact have some socialized medicine: Medicare.

Health Spending in Most OECD Countries Rises, with the U.S. far Outstripping all Others
oecd.org

Interesting statistics on US death rates and causes of death:
benbest.com

Lots of good OECD statistics:
oecdwash.org
216.239.63.104

Biotech stocks:
Subject 26145

Making claims or citing figures? Then provide your sources!

Anecdotes are just that- -anecdotes and NOT evidence.

Wisdom of the ages that directly apples to the subject at hand:


Pros and Cons of Single Payer (Socialized Medicine):


Healthcare Bluebook

Top Ten Myths about American Healthcare

what is the goal of the government option?:
Message 25880147

How many Americans are uninsured:
Message 26030766

Tired of the leftwing propaganda? Here is some rightwing propaganda on the proposals to take over the healthcare system:
healthcaretruth.amplify.com

Explaining the bizarre math of spending more and calling it a reduction.

A brief list of Republican Alternatives to the government takeover of the healthcare sector:
Message 26357442

Facts reveal that ObamaNoCare was written to generate low income voters:
http://obamanocare%20designed%20to%20generate%20low%20invome%20voters./

Important information about health insurance alternative:
Message 29299148
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ReplyMessage PreviewFromRecsPosted
42113<i>The 80s seem to be the time when US health care costs started to pull askinowski-June 12
42112Interesting - the real acceleration in this Great Bureaucratic Breakthrough staTimF-June 12
42111>> Interesting - the real acceleration in this Great Bureaucratic Breakthri-node1June 12
42110Yep, looks about right. The source is Kaiser. That's pretty trustworthy. skinowski-June 12
42109>>One of many, many possible examples... Not long ago, in a medical officei-node2June 12
42108CBS2 News Investigation: Flies In Operating Rooms Force VA Hospital To Postpone TimF-June 5
42107This Doctor Is Making Heart Surgery Accessible to the Poor by Embracing Mass Progamesmistress1May 31
42106“”One of many, many possible examples... Not long ago, in a medical office, I logg cox1May 13
42105Agree, but my guesstimate is that the #1 reason is the numbers of people who makskinowski1May 13
42104 >> I understand, Tim... but even considering all those concerns, this doi-node-May 13
42103Problem is, there is no data - as far as I know... and I tried to keep track of skinowski-April 30
42102Problem is, there is no data - as far as I know... and I tried to keep track of skinowski-April 30
42101I think the reason is the complexity, excessive regulation, huge and redundant bTimF-April 30
42100I understand, Tim... but even considering all those concerns, this doesn't cskinowski-April 30
42099Followed your link about doctor pay. Only third in specialist pay (although alTimF-April 30
42098From the article: It’s often argued that patients in the United States use too mskinowski-April 30
42097But, Americans are nearly twice as likely to die from a drug overdose than from TimF-April 30
42096I'm sure many of the reasons you mentioned contribute to high costs. But, Askinowski-April 29
42095Arguably the quality is better in certain ways, at least if you have the money oTimF-April 29
42094Yes, I've heard this doc lecture before, enjoyed this fun and informative taskinowski1April 29
42093The article is interesting, but it's avoiding the question: OK, but if we uskinowski-April 29
42092I have yet to see a meaningful cross sectional “study” of health care systems ini-node-April 27
42091The Pre-existing Condition: Innovative Solutions to America’s Thorniest HealthcaTimF-April 24
42090Donald J. Boudreaux: Fear of future fallacious Donald J. Boudreaux Tuesday, JanTimF-April 22
42089The NHS delivers poor outcomes – even the Commonwealth Fund agrees Kristian NieTimF2April 22
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