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To: Bill Murphy who wrote (1011)3/13/1999 11:51:00 PM
From: ahhaha   of 3539
 
Before the gold market was manipulated, an upward move

The gold market has never been manipulated. No market can be manipulated. Only an amateur would think otherwise. They can be influenced briefly, but it is of no value to those trying to influence it. Commodity markets have been known to be cornered, but a corner by definition can't end up profitably to those trying to corner. Gould and Fisk tried to corner the gold bullion market in 1869. The exercise busted them just like Hunt's silver corner busted them 20 years ago.

How can we account for such a development? While the
speculators were pitching their shorts, the commercials ( the
trade ) went from mega long to net short almost overnight (
in two weeks they decreased their net long position by
40,000 contracts and increased their short position by


You can't make any such claim. You don't know who did what. All that you know is that short interest dropped substantially. By short interest is meant the number contracts outstanding fell. You don't if it was shorts covering or longs selling. It is reasonable to assume that shorts were covering. What does that tell you? It tells you that professional traders have been seeing that repeated selling isn't pushing the market down. They're not making money. Suddenly when a few guys start covering the market is sensitive to the upside, so they rush in and cover. This creates a group knee jerk reaction. However the covering isn't causing price to rise as though there is a short covering rally in a bear market. Instead the demand is filled with little price change by supply above. This condition is very bullish. When price won't make headway on the downside which means there is no demand below, no prices booked below, selling won't make price go down. Price bases. This is what has been happening and this is what gets all those shorts nervous. It doesn't help to be short and start seeing anecdotal evidence that inflationary pressures are rising.

almost the same amount ). The change in the technical
makeup of the trading types on Comex has to be an
unprecedented shift for such a small price move in such a
short period of time. We checked around today with the
sharpest minds that we know in the gold industry. They all
said the same thing. There is no rationale explanation of this
except there had to be collusive market activity to
orchestrate such an event.


The sharpest minds in the "gold industry" whatever that means are always bearish at the bottom. They're like Pavlov's dogs. Since they never understood why it is going down, they certainly can't see when it is time for it to go up. The fact that they presumably know something makes them all the more reliable.

Let us review the scenario for this blatant manipulation. Until
the past couple of weeks, Goldman Sachs led a ferocious
attack by the bears trying to break the gold market. The


If you made this claim to Goldman-Sachs the traders there would laugh you out.

The gold loan, borrowing crowd has had to borrow gold (
until the recent price run up ) at less than $290 the past
number of months. A sustained move above $290 would
create a risk that their low interest rate loans could become
very expensive ones. A move to $310, for example, would


Why is that? The loan remains the same. There might be a margin call if the price moves substantially higher, but these positions are almost always hedged. The hedge has a limited protection range, but it does hold the losses down for a graceful liquidation of one or both legs.

create a potential $20 principal loss. If that occurred, the
annualized interest rate of the loan would become
prohibitive. Here is the rundown of that reasoning:


The interest on the loan remains the same. You should say that they could lose 20/290 = about 7% of principal, if they were carrying an unhedged position.

Gold is borrowed at 1% for 3 months from a bullion bank. A
move from $290 to $310 is a $20 loss, which represents a
7% loss in three months time. If you annualize that 7%, it
means the loss of 7% x 4 (3 more quarters ) is really 28%
on an annualized basis. Thus, the real interest rate is 28%
plus 1% or 29% total. That kind of money is loan shark
material.


The annualized calculation is specious and the extrapolated segue to loan sharking is deceptive or libelous. Since you aren't talking about anyone in particular, a hypothetical person whom you have dreamt up. that isn't the case. It is the case that your claim is misleading.

Therefore, it was in the interest of the big New York
financial houses not to let the price of gold run up too far up


The "big NY financial houses" can't manipulate a thing. They wish they could. Throughout history they tried and always lost. So long ago, 100 years, they gave up and just ran their so-called "loan sharking business" and found it pays the rent. If someone tried to manipulate the market whatever that may mean, they would call the SEC in immediately because it is those manipulations that hurt their hedged positions if taken too far. All executions involving commodity markets must go to the floor. That means the locals, the market makers, must get on the other side of the public trade. The houses are usually the main backing behind the locals, so they certainly are on the lookout for any shenanigans. Shenanigans of the Hunt Silver Debacle nature have nothing to do with attempts to manipulate. Those actions are big gamble based, not sure-thing manipulations. I believe it is utterly impossible to manipulate markets though some clown, usually a local or group of coordinated locals, tries some sort of pseudo-manipulating stunt from time to time. Almost always it deals with bending the rules and the public or the price is effected to such a small extent it is not detectable. These stunts can last for several months. They always end up with the perpetrators in jail. They loose a lot to possibly gain a little. It is so stupid it isn't worthy of comment.

now. We believe the spec short position ( a good bit of
which is leased gold ) is on average around 3,000 tonnes.
Mine supply in 1998 was 2529 tonnes. A significant run up in


You don't know what is speculative and you can't know the quantity. Even if you did, what would you know? squat.

the gold price could cause many financial institutions some
serious problems ( resulting from their own greed ). How


Wrong. There are many ways to profitably extract yourself from any short position as long as you get enough upside action. Enough could be as little as $30/oz. The 'Bugs say a move through $300 would be very significant. If these shorts see the price rising through $300, I guess they're going to send their locals in to cover. By the way the gold lease squeeze potential is very small. The squeeze would come from mining companies rushing in to cover their hedges. If you're short gold, you're sitting on a psychological time bomb. That's why the traders decided to clean up there mistaken downside expectation.

would the "Group" of them get their hands on so much gold
so fast without the gold price skyrocketing? They really do
not want a run up in the gold price now if they are using the


If you're still short, of course you don't want a run up. That doesn't mean you can do anything about it.

gold loans to finance other derivative trades that have nor
normalized since the Long Term Capital Management
blowup.


Have you ever heard of segregation of shorts? Maintenance margins are segregated also.

The best laid plans of mice and men always do not turn out
like they are supposed to. The sellers and gold borrowers
ran into a brick wall of physical gold buying around the $285
area a couple of weeks ago. We have been saying for
months that any time gold approaches this level, gold
demand goes through the roof. In addition, our sources tell


Wrong. No one wants to buy below this level, so a little selling doesn't break price. This is the definition of a sold out market. No buyers, So sellers sit. It is buying underneath the market that causes price to explore the downside. Price moves in the direction of the book.

us the Bank of China has been a buyer around that price
point.


You don't know this.

The collusion crowd was facing a dilemma. Everyone
following the gold market knew the size of the net spec
short position on Comex ( 7,000,000 ounces ). It is our


Everyone doesn't know that. No one knows if your figure is right. It is a complete speculation with no basis in fact. Even if it happened to be right, what do you think you would know then? Given the gold sentiment it could be supplied in ten minutes with no change in price. You have alluded to that elsewhere too. Indeed, local contract covering in quantity didn't run up the price. By the way that indicates there is supply above. That's what makes the market bullish.

Since the market would not break and was vulnerable to an
upside explosion due to the technical condition of the
market, it appears that the colluders called for a change of
strategy. Goldman Sachs became a noted heavy buyer of
gold on Comex around $285 to $87. We were then alerted


You don't know that. What are your sources?

that one of the largest producers intended to take on the
short the specs by covering some forward sales and we
were also told that one of the biggest hedge funds in the
world had entered the long side of the gold market ( they


No mining company in their right mind or fund would tell you anything. If one of their traders divulged anything like this, they would be gone toot sweet. Even if some fool did that, so what? Markets aren't determined by what some big guys do. It is determined by what all the little guys do. How many times in the past bunch of years have funds and mining companies made "real smart" moves, real smart based on judgements made by 'Bugs and the companies and experts were dead wrong. The public hasn't been wrong except the 'Bug public. They're always wrong anyway and they are the most unsuccessful participants in markets almost achieving the miserable performance of short sellers in roaring bear markets.

would not be alone ). As a result of receiving this
information, Midas du Metropole issued a bulletin on March
3 that read, "Major Gold Rally Imminent".

We then went up 6 days in a row before Friday's sell off. At
the end of the rally, we learned from 3 sources that
Goldman Sachs was going around telling producers to sell
forward. At the same time, they were noted bombers of the
gold market on Comex and helped to stop the rally in its
tracks. The selling by Goldman Sachs was noted by all.


So what? Even if your claim is true you don't know for whom Goldman-Sachs was executing the order. Goldman-Sachs executes orders for customers maybe mining companies or hedge funds. What does that tell you? Two orders might be on opposite sides. Are you claiming they are doing principal transactions? If so, you can't know that. In any event it is so unlikely that to make an unsubstantiated claim like this is silly. You accomplish nothing, but you are incurring risk. Goldman-Sachs knows you are a flea. They know they have to ignore you because it could invite trouble if they swatted the flea within their legal right. Perhaps even legal duty. The public would get up in arms because they would hear the press make a big deal about a brokerage house stepping on a bug. You could probably achieve the goal of your org by forcing them to pay you for the wrongful doing you have perpetrated on them. Such is the nature of our fairness based screwed-up legal system.

Then, yesterday the Commitment of Traders Report was
released after the close and we find out the big specs have
covered and the little guys have gone net long. Groans of
shock and disbelief were heard when the figures were
announced. Almost everyone thinks the gold market will be
trashed on Monday.


That's good news for the few "Bugs who are bullish.

This is clearly an outrage and example of blatant
manipulation and an obvious orchestration of trading in the


The only outrage is the purpose of GATA. It's purpose is to create notoriety for the founders since they're dead busted from speculating in the gold market. They're mad and they're going to make someone pay. Don't agree? So is GATA trying to get the gold price up or down? Neither? Oh, I see, they are dedicated to making markets fair by, by, by...reporting the facts!

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To: ahhaha who wrote (1012)3/14/1999 4:07:00 PM
From: Bull RidaH   of 3539
 
Ahhaha,

I've enjoyed reading your posts, and have learned more from you about market sentiment/psychology and its effects on price movement than everyone else combined. Although I've only logged about half as many total trades as you, I have experienced the sweet rewards as well as brutal punishment for obeying or disregarding these concepts.

This seems to be a crucial subject for one to master to be a truly high performance trader. Thus, I would like your opinion on some of the finer points of these concepts.

First off, I would like to address the situation we have now... Of a market where cash levels amongst money managers are at historically low levels... (i.e. they are fully invested). According to the concepts you have presented, this would create one of the most bullish situations possible, because there is relatively little money available to "bid" the market, which would explain the shallow nature of recent corrections which nearly always seem to end before they have really begun. With fully invested positioning, one would think the book would be above the market as these managers look to take profits and reallocate funds as the market rises. And as long as these funds are reinvested "at the market" (i.e. not sitting on a limit buy price), then the whole process should perpetually snowball and feed upon itself. Do these concepts ring true with you?

Now I would like to address how this process comes to an end. Obviously, inverse events that occur at bottoms must take place, which you have already adroitly discussed in your many posts on this subject. So to identify the end, one would want to look for a situation where exuberance and jubilation climaxes...great news is released on the markets.... everyone is so sure the market is heading dramatically higher that no one is willing to sell it. And the johnny come lately's are a little nervous about buying into the spike up that just occurred when everyone "realized" the market was heading much, much higher, and couldn't possibly go down, so the johnnys put their limit orders just below the price. With the "book" now below the market, it begins to turn.

Those with huge profits see the market turning, and begin to dump at market to lock 'em in, and down she goes. These profit takers decide they want to buy back in at a point significantly under where the market currently is, so the "book" continues to go lower as more profit taking occurs, leading the market lower. The common joe is watching this whole process, and is in shock and disbelief that this market that everyone was praising a short time ago is now collapsing before his eyes. He is stimulated and motivated to buy now because he missed the huge multi-hundered % move up, and has always heard you should buy on dips, and sees the market at a big discount to what it was trading at just a few days ago. So he empties his bank accounts and piggy banks, puts his market orders in to buy, and the market bounces temporarily as the masses do likewise, giving him a quick profit and making him feel good about his decision.

But more profit takers who missed their first opportunity to sell are now selling at market as the price rebounds, once again raising the cash on the sidelines looking to buy the market at significantly lower levels. With others too scared to sell these "straight-up" spike bounces, the limit sell orders quickly dry up, leaving only naively enthusiastic buyers ready to buy the first pullback with their limit orders. With the book now completely below the market, the slide resumes.... and so forth, gutting the naive and simple, who finally relinquish their positions when pure and raw panic set in... which is about where those well placed limit buy orders are located.. <g>.

So i would ask you... Do you see a coordination of activities here... Where the "Good news gas pedal" is floored by the financial media to meet the interest of certain well connected players who look to "goose a market" before they reverse positions? Or is this just the natural process of the market, with no one in particular to blame, designed to devour the substance of the naive and uninitiated....?

You have spoken much of the impact of limit orders, but what about market orders? Wouldn't you agree that market buy orders are a sign of healthy continuity in a bull market, and vice versa for a bear market?

Finally, I would be interested to know if you have defined other characteristics that may be helpful in identifying the end of a trend. Ones i've identified here include extremes in sentiment, obvious "goosing" by the financial media, climax price moves accompanied by climaxes in volume, rising cash levels, shock and disbelief of popular sentiment in the new trend, and of course the all important shift in the "book".

Thanks again for sharing your very helpful insights.

Regards,


David

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To: Bull RidaH who wrote (1013)3/14/1999 6:31:00 PM
From: ahhaha   of 3539
 
First off, I would like to address the situation we have now...
Of a market where cash levels amongst money managers
are at historically low levels... (i.e. they are fully invested)
According to the concepts you have presented, this would
create one of the most bullish situations possible, because
there is relatively little money available to "bid" the market,


No. You don't have it quite right. It cost nothing to put bids under the market.

which would explain the shallow nature of recent corrections
which nearly always seem to end before they have really
begun. With fully invested positioning, one would think the
book would be above the market as these managers look to
take profits and reallocate funds as the market rises. And


You sound bearish. They aren't. They may be cautious, but they aren't bearish. They get bearish near the bottom. They create the bottom when the realize they're bearishness by selling.

as long as these funds are reinvested "at the market" (i.e.
not sitting on a limit buy price), then the whole process
should perpetually snowball and feed upon itself. Do these
concepts ring true with you?


The book is thin above. People don't want to sell. They see we just went to an all-time high. Why sell? People, public, and institutions are all acting the same way. Who wants to book above and trap out? People are booking below in order to catch a pull back for the inevitable rise. They have been well trained like other Pavlov's dogs on the down side. The marginal demand has to be supplied by specialist and market maker. On balance these two are being forced to short more and more to the public demand because there isn't offsetting market orders to sell to meet the demand.

The institutional cash position has little to do with this mechanism. That's invested position, not positioning money. The averages are determine by the trading noise at the margin. That's the net positioning flow. When there is major investment change you get sustained price translation like last summer. Not much cash was built up by major institutions because the smaller ones caused such rapid damage that the big ones couldn't extract themselves in time without realizing major losses. The FED pump-up in the fall enabled them to paper erase much of the loss, but it also emboldened them to not only stay in, but to further extend themselves.

The sell-off in February lacked conviction so there wasn't enough market order sales to explore the downside. We are not talking about a thin market with an extended bear base behind it, we are talking about a very liquid state that attends the early phases of a general market top. As the top broadens, the market becomes illiquid. FED reassures the stock market with its regular coupon passes knee jerk response to a weakening in the TYX.X. That isn't institutional cash, it's government welfare. That means there isn't the tendency to pull bids as there was last summer. So whereas you get some downside that picks up the nearby bids below, the action falls into a temporary FED-provided pool of cash. When there is market order to sell conviction and bids are pulled and FED takes the pool away, you get Oct '87, hyper-illiquid state. This is not the state of the gold market currently.

Now I would like to address how this process comes to an
end. Obviously, inverse events that occur at bottoms must
take place, which you have already adroitly discussed in
your many posts on this subject. So to identify the end, one
would want to look for a situation where exuberance and
jubilation climaxes...great news is released on the


Already happened in the gold market, 9/1/98, which marked the KT boundary between the era of "disinflation" (slowing of inflation) and reflation.

markets.... everyone is so sure the market is heading
dramatically higher that no one is willing to sell it. And the


This has occurred several times in the stock market. Bonny Bear drew my attention to a stock, "OTMC", whose chart is well-correlated to the money structure under the stock market. You will see the several major market tops the intrinsic market has seen and they coincide with emotional sentiment peaks. To appreciate in what bad shape the stock market is, check OTMC's chart.

johnny come lately's are a little nervous about buying into the
spike up that just occurred when everyone "realized" the
market was heading much, much higher, and couldn't
possibly go down, so the johnnys put their limit orders just
below the price. With the "book" now below the market, it
begins to turn.


Yes, but these things take time and aren't straight line. As you know straight line or translatory moves are fairly reliable against which to take a contrary stance once capitulation is in place.

Those with huge profits see the market turning, and begin to
dump at market to lock 'em in, and down she goes. These
profit takers decide they want to buy back in at a point
significantly under where the market currently is, so the
"book" continues to go lower as more profit taking occurs,
leading the market lower. The common joe is watching this


Surprisingly, everyone including me is a "common Joe". We all hate the democracy of free markets.

whole process, and is in shock and disbelief that this market
that everyone was praising a short time ago is now
collapsing before his eyes. He is stimulated and motivated
to buy now because he missed the huge multi-hundered %
move up, and has always heard you should buy on dips, and
sees the market at a big discount to what it was trading at
just a few days ago. So he empties his bank accounts and
piggy banks, puts his market orders in to buy, and the
market bounces temporarily as the masses do likewise,
giving him a quick profit and making him feel good about his
decision.


That is the mechanism.

But more profit takers who missed their first opportunity to
sell are now selling at market as the price rebounds, once
again raising the cash on the sidelines looking to buy the
market at significantly lower levels. With others too scared
to sell these "straight-up" spike bounces, the limit sell orders
quickly dry up, leaving only naively enthusiastic buyers ready
to buy the first pullback with their limit orders. With the book
now completely below the market, the slide resumes.... and
so forth, gutting the naive and simple, who finally relinquish
their positions when pure and raw panic set in... which is
about where those well placed limit buy orders are located..
<g>.


Correct.

So i would ask you... Do you see a coordination of activities
here... Where the "Good news gas pedal" is floored by the
financial media to meet the interest of certain well
connected players who look to "goose a market" before
they reverse positions? Or is this just the natural process of
the market, with no one in particular to blame, designed to
devour the substance of the naive and uninitiated....?


It is a natural process since it is extremely difficult to know just what state the market is in. You'll find the press is always a posteriori. They try to "explain" why price moved. Sometimes there's no apparent reason so they have to grasp for straws and blame it on obscurities like Miyazawa flipped AG the bird on the way to Dulles and so the market gapped down 2000 points. The public prefers to believe the myth that there is a giant conspiracy being cooked up by trillionaires who control the planet earth and hide out in glass and steel towers. Much to the somewhat believing billionaires' consternation when they want to join up to extend their wealth, they find there is no such animal and that the entire enterprise flies by the seat of its pants. That means a beginner has just as good of a chance as the billionaire to be successful. This is the nature of democracy and it is the last thing you'll ever convince the little guy is true.

You have spoken much of the impact of limit orders, but
what about market orders? Wouldn't you agree that market
buy orders are a sign of healthy continuity in a bull market,
and vice versa for a bear market?


Bear markets are created more by institutional persisting in their entering of bids below the market than by market orders to sell. The market orders are in general net zero in effect unless they are bunched and cause a translation when the other side pulls away from market order entry in the countervailing direction. The market order action is then either directed to the book or in extremes, to the market maker.

Sometimes the market maker won't provide the continuous market that is their job. In Oct '87 the specialist refused to do their duty and so a 100 share order would cause, say, IBM, to drop 60 points. The specialist walked off the floor in protest of their favorite sidecar, program trading which had made them so much money previously. The latrine orderly was the one on the other side of the IBM 100 share trade. The specialists could have made tons by just doing their duty and obeying floor rules, but like the public, they're too smart for that. They know what they need to know and they think they know where markets are headed. Those specialists and market makers with that attitude don't last. They get cleaned out just like the public.

Finally, I would be interested to know if you have defined
other characteristics that may be helpful in identifying the
end of a trend. Ones i've identified here include extremes in
sentiment, obvious "goosing" by the financial media, climax
price moves accompanied by climaxes in volume, shock and
disbelief of popular sentiment in the new trend, and of
course the all important shift in the "book".


I included the comments above about what can happen to a specialist who bends floor rules, who tries to use the book to get an advantage. The market is set up to make the specialist money by forcing the specialist to buy or sell at market extremes. The specialists don't want to do that. They are like everyone else. They can see the market is headed straight up or straight down. Doesn't matter how many years of experience they have. As soon as they don't do their jobs, start wandering into a belief that they know this and that, their expected return starts falling. It teaches you "pretense to knowledge".

The shift in the book is gradual and market makers suddenly see that they have been pushed to be net short or long. They can't use that information because they don't know if the trend has ended. They can only say that they are getting more and more short or long on balance. It makes you uncomfortable to be somewhat short like now. The market has forced you there. The ups and downs force you to cover shorts when brief downside spells are illiquid and you have to cover your market induced shorts below to maintain price continuity.

Nonetheless, at market tops the market maker is on balance short and the psychological effect is that it causes you to expect to see the institutions come in One More Time and run them against you. This is a fear syndrome that you must learn to manage and resist. When effective specialist short interest is high you know the specialist is sweating. You won't see specialist short interest change these days like you did in the past because the specialist is effectively hedged in the option markets so the shorting may be occurring in the derivatives of the issues handled. There are other reasons why the traditional figures don't work too.

Because of this the only way to get an assessment of the market state, the elasticity with respect to marginal supply or demand, which is a representation of the book state and on-balance market order flow, is to analyze every trade. Even if you have the raw every trade data, you have to have an analytical machinery that enables a proper assessment of the market state. As in quantum mechanics there is no continuous evolution parameter that tells you that if you have a set of eigenstates, then in the next time slice you will have a state configuration up to probability density, so you know the certainty of the persistence of state. No Markov chain of previous states can give you the next state space. You only know that the instantaneous state is more or less stable. When integrated back the differential state gives you an average state. Doesn't tell you what markets will do, just tells you how far out of normalized equilibrium they are and hence potential risk, not calculated risk.

Other kinds of anecdotal evidence like all the traditional sentiment measures only tell you that people have degrees of belief. A degree of belief can validly stay in place a long time. Thus they aren't of much value. They're of no value trading, but nothing is since trading is a negative expected return game.

The only reliable way to make money is to identify something that is cheap when there are changing conditions that imply it may no longer remain cheap. Another way is gambling on new. Both require buy and hold. The latter requires buying without looking and the former requires accumulation at ever higher prices.

In this business it is necessary to get evidence and evidence is always probabilistic. The only evidence available is what people are doing. Right now the DOW industrials are near an all time peak, yet other averages aren't. When you look at DOW TRAN and DOW UTIL, you don't like what you see. Obviously UTIL is reflecting what is happening in the bond market, but that can't be good news. You don't try to explain these things away. When you see a divergence between these indicators in what ever direction, you have to take it under advisement. They don't say the Industrials are headed for trouble. They could hang up here for months just like 1972. We have had no bear market since '73 - 74 so many of these indicators are long forgotten. Like Don Worden said long ago I like indicators which have the ability to contradict. There's too much noise in sentiment to sift out of them that ability if it is there.

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To: ahhaha who wrote (1014)3/15/1999 12:45:00 AM
From: Eashoa' M'sheekha   of 3539
 
GOLD SUCKS.WHY DO YOU BOTHER!

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To: Eashoa' M'sheekha who wrote (1015)3/15/1999 2:23:00 AM
From: ahhaha   of 3539
 
For you, brother. Now let us pray.

We'll do no such damn thing. Jean Luc Picard

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To: ahhaha who wrote (1016)3/15/1999 9:23:00 AM
From: Eashoa' M'sheekha   of 3539
 
HA HA Ha..Good One!(EOM)

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To: Eashoa' M'sheekha who wrote (1017)3/17/1999 12:25:00 AM
From: Susan Lynn   of 3539
 
I know virtually zilch about the minerals market, but I can't imagine that inflationary pressures can be held in check forever.

Is there any scenario in which a rise in inflation could be bad or neutral for gold?

It seems as Y2K fears close in, people currently hiding their heads in grossly overvalued Internet stocks will come to their senses and want more tangible / value investments. Or am I just dreaming that this is the worst bubble in stock market history.

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To: Susan Lynn who wrote (1018)3/17/1999 2:13:00 AM
From: ahhaha   of 3539
 
The industrial stocks have entered a bear market. The computer oriented stocks are in or have been in a bear market. Only telecommunications and Internet stocks are completing their bull runs. All the rest peaked in 7/97, 10/97, 4/98, 7/98, 1/99, depending upon which group.

It is traditional for the DOW to struggle up to a bench mark in order to post the flag of what was achieved in that era. Just because the industrial stocks are in a bear market that doesn't mean there is some sort of "bubble" going on. You are making a major mistake if you think the Internet stocks are way over-valued. No doubt they will get a good correction, probably an excess one, but how did you enter your post to Taurus553? How did you buy CPU? Upon what does CPU depend?

You can have a bear market that lasts for years and goes down 1% per year. Diversified portfolios lose 3 - 5% per year. Lots of individual stocks do great. The occurrence of a bear market doesn't mean that "tangibles" are in flower. You can have great economic times with little inflation, but still industrial stocks head lower and precious metal stocks head higher. By the time the clowns say, "we're in a bear market", they've lost 50%. So why did you buy CompUSA?

The stock is locked in a horrible downtrend. It will go to 2 1/2 and sit there for many years. When you went into the store and were impressed with the service, that is just like Peter Lynch investment theory. It ain't worth two cents. He's totally wrong. You can't assess a company that way. CPU has a mass of antiques that even if they had "DELL outside", they couldn't sell 'em, and what they sell they get a 1% margin.

There are those who are anxious to sell their bearish assessment of y2k. They want you to believe that it has titanic consequences. When you hear the FED making comments to North Dakota National Bank that their subsidiary in Coldfoot needs to get their legacy code written in binary up to snuff, you have to realize that this pseudo-problem has been substantially addressed. Even if the problem was never even acknowledged, it would never be an "earnings potential" problem. Accountancy problems don't change the future expected value of earning streams. y2k is just another myth some fool amateur bears who missed the entire bull market invented for reasons inherited from old time bears while the actual reasons for the bear remain unrevealed. In fact, I have yet to hear one amateur bear make a coherent argument of why we are in a bear market.

The bears are bears because they are prejudiced. Meanwhile there is a bear market going on, but the bears can't see it! In a similar but inverse way that goes double for the gold market. It has entered a terrific bull market, but most of the so-called sophisticates, gold professed bulls, can't see this. They trot out all kinds of irrelevant stuff to convince themselves that gold is in a bear market, the world is deflating, and they should sell. They don't because they are prejudiced against making money any other way. The latest bull's excuse of why the market is bearish is seen in the recent decision by the IMF to sell gold.

Reminds me of the Swiss Central Bank last year selling their birthright for a pot of paper. The IMF is a socialist stooge operation which, like the World Bank, does everything reliably wrong. They are a nuisance to the world's central banks. They are a wild card, the error term in the expectation functor. They fund human misery. The clowns, the majority whether they call themselves bulls, bears, or GATAs, somehow think that with 10 million ounces flooding the market and no one buying, the gold price has to plunge. When will all these amateurs, cbs, IMF, experts, professors, economists, mining geologists, strategists, the whole lousy lot of them get it through their thick heads that price isn't determined by instantaneous demand and supply. Never.

Thus just like you shouldn't bet a dime on what Lynch or Buffitt say they do, you shouldn't bet a dime on what all the cognoscenti among the "Bugs claim they do. They sell at the bottom. You shouldn't do that and you shouldn't try to buy anything at the bottom. You buy a little of something that is starting to up trend, and then you buy more if it persists upward. You buy on the way up, not on the way down like you have with CPU. It's tough to do. In a bull market the thing falls all the way up and you doubt every inch on the way up. Again if you're bearish, why would you buy a stock in a horrible bearish down trend? Answer. It's cheap.

The 'Bugs don't buy gold because they don't think it's cheap. If you still have CPU when and if it starts up trending you won't want to buy it, just like the 'Bugs won't want to buy gold up trending. They will patiently wait for it to drop back down, but it won't cooperate or they will get bearish so that if it drops, they won't buy. It's the inverse of you buying on the way down. It's easy. It's cheap. It's getting cheaper and gold is getting dearer. All of this seems confusing. Changes in major trend are almost impossible to detect. If that wasn't the case, the majority would know and act in anticipation to undo what would have been the change. You have to be somewhat alone in your investment action though it goes against Lynch and Buffitt.

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To: Susan Lynn who wrote (1018)3/17/1999 3:44:00 AM
From: .Trev   of 3539
 
Susan

It's like the man said (at great length) " if the market doesn't go up or down, it'll stay where it is"

Actually his style reminds me of Ayn Rand, I used to skip rheems of pages in her books too.

The truth is nobody know for real sure. If it were easy somebody else would have done it and some of them did.

Tread cautiously till YOU convince yourself!!!!!

P.S. If you want some interesting reading try scanning the Sout African Mining thread and look for some of the posts by Searle Sennett, who makes good sense quite frequentlt. I think you'll find the Gold Industry is in a state of restructuring, and consolidation from SAf on out into the world, that will affect gold production for years to come. Don't just use one guru there's lots around. Try them all then make up your own mind.

Good luck.

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To: Susan Lynn who wrote (1018)3/17/1999 5:15:00 AM
From: Zardoz   of 3539
 
"Is there any scenario in which a rise in inflation could be bad or neutral for gold?"

Yes, when it is lead by interest rates sensitive instruments such as bonds, and the CPI data rates reflect a lower inflation status. This causes pressure on foreign markets. And either countries like Euro-land must keep interest rate pace, or watch the cash outflows occur. This is why the USD has risen in the preceeding month as bond yields rose. This takes away the support on the over valued gold markets, and when any little news article happens, causes the price of Gold to fall. It's only because of M2 rate decreases that the bonds are remaining high. Monetary policies act as a buffer by increasing liquidity, which as of late has dried up. This is Greenspans way of removing the excesses he applied in late August. Many have stated as of late on how strange it was that gold was going up, with the US dollar. But this is really not due to inflation. Gold has always moved best in deflationary times. Except people often confuse interest rates increases with that of inflation, because often the two move in step. But in higher growth times, where growth out paces inflation, gold actually falls, as currency strengthen. Long bonds are only reflecting the lower M2 rates, or Monetary inflation if you prefer. After a while these yileds will either lower or CPI inflation will pick up. If CPI moves, so will the DOW {down}.

Consider this: cost of production has an affect on gold. What are the costs? Fuel, wages, machines.. etc. Oil?

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