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To: Whoomi Tellalie who wrote (42)8/29/1996 4:38:00 AM
From: Ran Kivetz   of 3033
 
Whoomi,

It's interesting what you said about the HDI show: "...(you) see the same products and hear the same promises. It's been a while since anyone has come up with something truly innovative."

I wonder if this industry has anything really innovative or interesting (technology wise) to offer. The different Web modules are nice. But, I'm starting to think that it's going to be a while before we see really new, exciting stuff coming out. Basically this is no cutting-edge HIGH-TECH industry. A lot of info handling, etc..

Wonder what this means for the CIS P/Es and the industry's growth rate?

BTW, what promises were you referring to?

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To: Ran Kivetz who wrote (43)8/29/1996 7:39:00 PM
From: Whoomi Tellalie   of 3033
 
Hi Ran, I think the growth is there in this segment, only because it's replacing stand-alone (usually home-grown) systems with integrated solution suites that actually work. The potential market is huge (I don't have my Gartner Group data handy, but it's big), ao it will be a while to saturation.

Regarding new innovative stuff. I consult in the Technical/Customer Support area, and my impression is that all the Problem Management Software (PMS?) that's out there basically speeds up current ways of doing things, rather than providing quantum leaps in ways of doing business. I think the next big thing in this area is going to be automated problem correction, smarter wizards, and more standardization of error and diagnostic messages. It remains to be seen how well vendors will handle this (and let's not re-open the McAfee discussion).

Regarding promises etc. No vendor I have ever talked to gives a realistic picture of the time and effort required to implement and deploy support automation. It's great for me, because that's where I make my living (or at least part of it). For example, a vendor may tell you that you can have a system with all the bells and whistles for say $2,000 per seat. Sure, that's the cost of the software only. Then you factor in the supporting platform, platform software, database engine. Then, you need a DBA (for anything but the most trivial applications, you really need a full-time person). Have you tried to hire a Sybase or Oracle or Informix DBA lately? Then, you need to spend (a lot of) time on thinking through your business processes, and mapping them to the software's constraits. Then you have to customize the software. Then you have to pilot, then train, then deploy. And on-going costs just add up. So the $2,000 pretty soon becomes $10,000/seat or more over a three-year period.

The second major promise that most vendors will make is about the expected productivity increase. This may come as a shocking surprise (:-)), but it's not often you realize a huge productivity increase, at least in the short term. The biggest selling point for automation is that you can save on labor (often the biggest cost element in a support center) by hiring fewer people with a lower skill level to handle the "duplicate" calls i.e. calls on those issues that have been reported before. In some areas, this works quite well. For example, in a Help Desk situation you can purchase "knowledge-packs" that contain a problem/solution database for a lot of consumer products (MS Office, Lotus, Novell etc.). This does not work well when the knowledgebase does not exist (because it takes a while to build up the knowledgebase), or when the support requests that come in are on products that do not lend themselves to a lot of repeat occurences. For example, in complex client-server environments with custom software, it's not often (at least not as often as on consumer software) that two calls are on the same issue. Even if they are, in these environments a lot of time is spent on actually clarifying and defining the issue, and then it is relatively trivial to conduct a search against known problems. Framing the problem requires special skills, so you can't really hire cheaper labor.

All that leaves then is productivity increases realized from using computers instead of paper. In a well-designed system, this can be quite a lot. For example, automated customer validation, screen pop etc. On the other hand, a lot of support managers go ga-ga with the technology, and end up wanting to capture every possible nugget of information on support requests. By the time the hapless support rep is done, all your labor savings are gone. And guess what: all that wonderful information? Nobody has time to look at it.

Does this make sense? I don't mean to paint a negative picture, but rather a realistic one. A lot of the first generation of customers of PMS are beginning to realize that they were somewhat optimistic on the benefits. Word is getting out, and future generations of customers will be more cautious. I think this will make the vendors more honest, and also help them produce better product.

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To: bluepilot5 who wrote ()9/1/1996 12:58:00 AM
From: Mike Harkness   of 3033
 
Ryan, have you noticed in this week's Barron's that 3 Top insiders have sold big chunks of stock. The CEO is one of them. Do you think they expect a sllowdown or are they trying to raise some personal liquidity? They sold about a million bucks worth each in mid August.

Mike Harkness

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To: Whoomi Tellalie who wrote (44)9/1/1996 7:23:00 AM
From: Ran Kivetz   of 3033
 
Whoomi hello,

The market growth rates estimated by the different IT research groups (Aberdeen, Gartner, META) are indeed optimistic and are around 50% per year. These estimatews regard the CIS market, where the strong problem managenet vendors play. I think the general consensus is that the CIS market will reach $3 billion sometime around 1999 (+/- 1 year).

I agree w/ you about the benefits from these sort of products. Just automating the processes on computers and relational data bases improves productivity compared to the old paper&pencil help desk/sales management (someone once called it "3M help desks").

A software company I'm involved w/ recently automated their small customer support system with a CIS tool. They saved a lot by doing so. Actually , they increased revenues by tracking customers who were getting service without paying maintainence fees, or installing software on workstations beyond their license agreement.

You are very right regarding in-house systems. In-house systems are easy to build, but hard to maintain. They don't scale up, and as the business grows the in-house app becomes obsolete. Since many companies use in-house systems, the market still has "many places to go to."

So we agree CIS benefits the users. BUT, so does water, which is a dirt cheap commodity. Maybe it will really be a $3 billion market in '98/'99. So what? There might still be tens of competitors, with low margins; all scambling for market share. A commodity market!

If this will prove to be the case then why the high P/E ratios (which lately came down from the overpriced 200 range, into the 100 range that is still pretty high)?

Whoomi, in your message you mentioned that "... regarding new innovative stuff... I think the next big thing ...is going to be automated problem correction, smarter wizards, and more standardization of error and diagnostic messages..."

Well, I agree. But, chances are that this sort of stuff isn't going to come from the typical CIS vendors (VNTV,RMDY, SCOP, etc.). Rather, the network/system/asset management vendors are probably the ones that will be able to perform these tasks.

Thanks for the "promises explanation." It helps clarify (no pun intended) the picture and illustrates the true inner mechanisms of this industry. I agree with everything you described; I've seen it happen exactly as you portrayed it.

Your explanation also addes some spice to my argument:

You mentioned that the costs of implementing a CIS tool are actually higher than those conveyed by the vendors, and that the benefits actually might be lower than "advertised." You also said that clients are increasingly aware of this. This means that the percieved actual benefits for the customer are lower, hence in the future vendors may face lower margins . Once again, CIS might become more of a commodity market.

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To: Ran Kivetz who wrote (46)9/1/1996 3:40:00 PM
From: seth thomas   of 3033
 
Who were the three insiders selling?

John Luongo is the CEO. At the IPO, he held approximately 800,000 shares, so a million bucks worth is about 20,000 shares, or about 2.5%. I believe it is the first he has sold since VNTV went public a year ago. I can't get too worked up about someone selling 2.5% over a year's time. It would be as if you had 1,000 shares, and sold 25 shares. Probably not a big deal.

Also, he gets additional options as the CEO, so he probably had another chunk vest, and I'm sure his option plan is greater than 20,000 per year. So, he probably has more now than at the IPO, even after recent selling.

Also, insiders have certain windows in which they can sell. He probably sold after the most recent earnings report, call it late July (it takes about a month for these trades to show up). So, he couldn't sell more until late October.

That's another reason small insider trades don't get me too excited - he sold in late July, and I think the stock is actually higher now then when he sold.

If you tell me the other two names, perhaps I can give you some scoop.

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To: seth thomas who wrote (47)9/3/1996 4:11:00 AM
From: John Green   of 3033
 
I have noticed 20 '144' filings in August of intentions
by holders to sell shares. The largest have been by
Norwest, a VC firm for 305K, 255K and 145K. These filings
do not commit the holders to see these shares.

Does anyone know why so many filings were done in August?

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To: Mike Harkness who wrote (45)9/3/1996 9:35:00 PM
From: John Green   of 3033
 
Insider selling is old news.

The three trades took place in May. Goldsworthy sold
25,000 shares and now has 900,000. Roshko sold 10,000
and now has 21,000. Sippl sold 50,000 and now has
560,000.

Since these sales were done before the company released
their fantastic earnings for 2QTR, it is goold example of
why not to put too much wieght on insider sales.

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To: John Green who wrote (49)9/4/1996 10:51:00 AM
From: seth thomas   of 3033
 
Thanks for posting this info. Note that none of these three are CEO, as someone else thought one of these was. The mention of the CEO caused me to write a bit about the CEO are few postings ago.

Goldsworthy is the co-founder and remains as Chief Technical Officer and I think Chairman. Roshko is a board member, and he used to be a VC partner with Mohr-Davidow Ventures. I am not sure what he is doing now. Sippl was the initial seed investor, and recently took Visigenic (VSGN) public and also made money in the Illustra acquisition by IFMX.

All of these look to be personal liquidity trades.

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To: John Green who wrote (49)9/5/1996 8:03:00 PM
From: Mike Harkness   of 3033
 
John, The insider sellers according to Barron's are John Luongo(25000 Shares on 8/8), Peter Anatol Roshko(21,500 Shares 8/13), and The Hughes Aircraft Retirement Plan (6,941 Shares 8/8). All of these trades were after they posted the earnings.
Mike

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To: Mike Harkness who wrote (51)9/7/1996 2:01:00 AM
From: John Green   of 3033
 
Mike,

I pulled my information on insider selling from Vickers and
I checked it again today. They do not yet have any entries
for the trades that Barrons said took place in Aug. Since
Vickers claims they update their database daily with SEC
filings, I will find out on Monday why they are not current.

There is also a site that contains mutual fund holdings by
fund or company. The report for VNTV can be obtained from

stocksmart.com 

It shows positive mutual fund buying for 2QTR 96.

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