Technology Stocks | Vantive Corporation


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To: Trader Dave who wrote (1541)2/21/1998 10:33:00 AM
From: Shege Dambanza   of 3033
 
Maybe reduced support costs aren't the only thing that's important. How about customer responsiveness, retention and satisfaction.

I absolutely agree. However, few companies track such things as customer responsiveness, retention and satisfaction. Even if these things are measured, it is difficult to show a finance type (e.g. a CFO) that these things are 1) contributors to revenue/profit and 2) primarily caused by automation. A lot of automation is in fact based on faith that there will be benefits down the line. Most ROI analyses (e.g. the testimonial from the Compaq guy in Siebel ads) are based on flawed and wishful thinking.

Manufacturing processes, OTOH, are far more measured and it is easier to determine cause-and-effect relationships and so justify ERP/SCM spending.

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To: investorgal who wrote (1539)2/21/1998 1:23:00 PM
From: investorgal   of 3033
 
I just heard Vantive is launching an ad campaign directly going
after Siebel and it's claims of leadership in the SFA market. It should be interesting...........................

cheers

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To: investorgal who wrote (1544)2/21/1998 4:06:00 PM
From: Shege Dambanza   of 3033
 
They must have too much money. I don't know how effective ads are in this market segment, even when they are narrowly targeted. (Actually, some people (including myself) would question how effective ads are, period). Siebel is trying to build up a brand, which is why they're advertising. We know SEBL has too much money.

Vantive would be better off with more traditional collateral delivered one-on-one: brochures, demos, white papers, competitive benchmarks (feature and performance), reference accounts, and most importantly, demonstrated successes in head-to-head situations against Siebel.

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To: Melissa McAuliffe who wrote (1534)2/22/1998 5:57:00 PM
From: Reggie A.Dale   of 3033
 
Melissa, you said in an earlier message that Vantive was trying to recruit sales people Seibel, I'm afraid your source is incorrect. Seibel has tried unsuccessfully recruit salespeople from Vantive.

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To: Reggie A.Dale who wrote (1546)2/22/1998 6:20:00 PM
From: Melissa McAuliffe   of 3033
 
Reggie, Since I am neither a recruiter nor a recruitee of either company, I can only repeat what I hear on the street. But I would imagine that both companies continually try to recruit from another since that's just the way this business is and will continue to be. If you are smart, the first place you look is within your competitor's organizations. Really cuts down on the start up time.
Melissa

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To: Shege Dambanza who wrote (1543)2/22/1998 6:57:00 PM
From: Melissa McAuliffe   of 3033
 
Shege, I have to disagree with the statement . <<However, few companies track such things as customer responsiveness, retention and satisfaction.>> I think this may have been true ten or even five years ago but not so today. And even back then I know that many companies tracked these things religiously. Not only will a good CIS system let you better satisfy your customers, it will also provide a company with information critical to maximum utilization of resources in the support area thus providing an ability to better manage the costs of customer support. I believe you will find that your most successful companies today place a major emphasis on these issues and the companies which don't are the ones which won't be around tomorrow anyway. I agree with your statement that it is difficult to convince a CFO of the points you raised but if the support area is not under his/her direct control (unlikely) the CFO is not the one who would be approving these purchases in the first place.
Melissa

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To: Melissa McAuliffe who wrote (1547)2/23/1998 12:06:00 AM
From: Shege Dambanza   of 3033
 
Perhaps this is sheer coincidence, or perhaps Siebel is getting very agressive with recruiting, but three acquaintances of mine have been contacted by them within the last two weeks (not one of them works for CLFY/VNTV/SCOP).

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To: Melissa McAuliffe who wrote (1548)2/23/1998 12:26:00 AM
From: Shege Dambanza   of 3033
 
I guess we move in different circles. I know of many companies where voluminous reports are regularly produced but few companies that 'religiously' examine the data. As I said in my original post, even if those customer metrics are tracked, little is done with the metrics from a business standpoint. Metrics like 'customer satisfaction' are so soft and squishy that they're useless. 'Responsiveness' sounds wonderful but what does it mean, really? And what is the relationship between 'responsiveness' and profitability?

Regarding the comment about the CFO: again, we must move in different circles. I know of few enterprise-level CIS purchases where the CFO (or a high-level finance type) is not involved to some (large) degree. The finance person may not be the one initiating the purchase, but you can be sure the finance people are at least involved in the budgeting for the purchase, and are likely to ask tough questions then. A smart line manager will make sure the finance people are lined up before springing big bucks for SW. Every self-respecting salesperson I know finds out in the first sales call if the planned purchase has financial approval, and if the contact person (support manager) has budget authority to commit bucks. If the finance group isn't involved, the sale could be in trouble. It's called due diligence and if the company ain't doing it, watch out.

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To: Shege Dambanza who wrote (1550)2/23/1998 10:20:00 AM
From: Melissa McAuliffe   of 3033
 
Shege<<I guess we move in different circles.>> It seems so. I can't remember from your prior posts on SI what your area of expertise is but I seem to remember it being either technical or accounting. Sorry if I'm wrong on that. My background is neither but rather front line out with the customers so I may be coming at this from a totally different perspective. If you go to various successful companies web sites you will find so so many that address this issue of customer satisfaction. Take a look at sebl's, e.g. They have a commitment to 100% customer satisfaction. Look at PSFT and some of the other big ones. There was a time (prior to all these systems even being in existence) where companies tried to collect all this data. Many manager's (myself included) had a large chunk of their bonuses associated with customer satisfaction (as measured by customer surveys), customer retention, etc. I worked for a company that did QUARTERLY surveys. And if a customer didn't respond after two quarters they got a phone call from someone on the senior management team. A CEO I worked for, if called by a customer with an unresolved problem, would practically put the entire company on hold until this customer was happy. (Sometimes this was not a realistic expectation).

You said..<<.And what is the relationship between 'responsiveness' and profitability? >> A very large one. A company spends a great deal of time and money to get a customer. That customer represents a continuing annuity. Losing a customer impacts the bottom line. You lose customers by not being responsive. If you are a software company, e.g. the ongoing maintenance fees generated by a customer over a period of time (I don't have the exact number) exceed the amount paid for the software over and over again. And to get this all you have to do is take care of this customer. Also, what about the on-going consulting revenues as new releases are issued, sales of additional products to that customer, etc. This is or should be the easy money. With respect to responsiveness, try selling someone software without being able to explain your support escalation process. If you don't have one, you're dead in the water. Try not knowing your average response time to phone calls. These companies want to know this before they buy from you because they have ALL been burned somewhere in the past by someone. I could go on and on about this but will stop here on this point.

With respect to us again moving in different circles with respect to the CFO...I can't imagine any company where the CFO is not intimately involved in the budgeting PROCESS. But it is not the CFO who sets the tone of the company with respect to customer support/satisfaction. It is the CEO. And if this is important to that company and that person that CFO will find the bucks when the budgeting cycle is occurring. A good salesperson should be able to provide these companies with all the quantifiable data they need to justify this purchase. Your comment with respect to finding out if the purchase has financial approval is part of Sales 101 and is more indicative of the churn 'em and burn 'em mentality of the gunslinger types. A seasoned salesperson is one who is smart enough to know how to put all the pieces together necessary to qualify a prospect. I can't tell you how many times I started a sales process in one year (where there was NO budget at all) which turned into a deal in the following year when the budget was approved. Much better is to review the company's financials to be sure there is the possibility of money being there and to ascertain is the company has a need, strong commitment, get a feel for the politics, etc. The CEO letter can often tell you a lot. Obviously, meeting him would be even better but not always a realistic goal on a first call. Or ever in some cases. I always found that this "is there a budget" question was meant for the rookies to give them some guidance and to avoid the chasing rainbows syndrome for which most sales rookies are known. I could go on and on about this too as I could talk about sales incessantly but at the risk of boring eveyone on this thread I will stop now and go see how the market is doing today.
Melissa


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To: Melissa McAuliffe who wrote (1551)2/23/1998 10:58:00 AM
From: Shege Dambanza   of 3033
 
Thanks for the long post, but we're still talking past one another. I was trying (obviously not very successfully) to make the distinction between the act of collecting metrics, and their actual usage in business operations. For example, measuring customer satisfaction is wonderful but few surveys (even followup surveys) provide enough information for a manager to figure out the relationship between the satisfaction rating, and the actions the manager can take. A lot of companies tout their commitment to customer satisfaction. They've been reading too many books by the likes of Tom Peters. Of course satisfaction is important, but measuring it is tricky and it is not clear how CIS systems can help.

Regarding responsiveness, I used 'responsiveness' in the call center sense of the word. Can you tell me what will happen to profits if the Average Hold Time moves 5 seconds either way from 45 seconds? Are customers more likely to buy if I show them my hold time is 90 seconds, than 2 minutes? I very much doubt it. It's not clear that current implementations of CIS systems (problem tracking systems in particular) necessarily improve 'responsiveness'. They may improve the ability of others to take incoming calls, and provide better problem management capability, but improvements in responsiveness generally come about from process redesign, staffing, scheduling, and training.

You state the obvious about the profit implications of customer loyalty/retention. I don't know why that was necessary.

Regarding finances. We'll have to agree to disagree. Support and sales types (and sometimes even CEOs) are often enamored of the technology, and are usually unable to make a realistic business assessment of the implications of the technology purchase.

This may come as a shock to you, but I've spent a considerable amount of time on the 'front lines'. I tend to have a healthy skepticism of everything, that all. And no, I'm not an accountant. That would be Clam Clam.

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