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To: Broken_Clock who wrote (15632)4/25/2012 5:04:12 PM
From: TimF1 Recommendation   of 44214
 
Check out the budget. If you want to talk about single programs Social Security costs more than the military. If you want whole categories, entitlements cost more than everything vaguely security related combined. Going forward entitlements are growing faster. If you want to count types of spending by government on all levels then entitlements and education spending, and perhaps other categories are ahead of military and military related spending.

And military spending has been shrinking over time as a part of the budget and as a portion of the economy. The other categories I mentioned have been growing.

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To: koan who wrote (15643)4/25/2012 5:05:43 PM
From: sm1th4 Recommendations   of 44214
 
UK used our Republican econmic formula and here they are.


Greece and Portugal used our Democrat economic formula. How did that work out?

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To: Steve Lokness who wrote (15612)4/25/2012 5:30:52 PM
From: TimF   of 44214
 
Obamacare makes people pay for other people's care. A young person (the group most likely to not have insurance) could get a catastrophic insurance policy cheap. Obamacare outlaws catastrophic insurance, while requiring insurance, causing the young and healthy to subsidize others. It doesn't enforce paying your own way as you suggest, it enforces paying for others.

But the specific point I was talking about was the coverage requirement for contraception. That's the government forcing itself in to social issues. Obama backs that policy.

PPACA also gets in to the abortion issue. It doesn't force insurance companies to offer coverage for elective abortions the way it force them to have no copay, no deductible coverage for birth control, but any company participating in an exchange that provides elective abortion coverage, everyone (not just the people who want the coverage, or just women who might potentially have an abortion, but men, old women, apparently children who's parents would have to pay the $1 or more for them) has to pay a $1 or more ($1 is the floor the insurance company can't go below but it can charge more) payment for the abortion coverage. In other words you can't opt in or opt out, the law forces either no coverage, or everyone pays for the coverage.

Any bill with so many requirements and mandates is going to get itself in to social issues like this. It can't help not doing so. If it required insurance coverage, and and required coverage (no denying coverage) and subsidized coverage (which it does for low earners participating in the exchanges), and didn't alllow the subsidized insurance to cover abortion, then people who have no objections to abortions, and who might want to get covered for one, have to pay something (even if subsidized) for a plan that doesn't cover what they want, and then have to find some other way to deal with the uncovered expenses. If it allowed the subsidies, to cover abortion then you have federal funding of elective abortion. This tries to avoid both but it gets coerced private payment for coverage of elective abortion instead. Interestingly the insurance companies aren't allowed to advertise the cost. I suppose that creates a customer service headache for them when people ask about the separate $1 (or more) charge on their bill each month.

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Contraceptives Mandate Brings ObamaCare’s Coercive Power into Sharper Focus
Posted by Michael F. Cannon

President Obama is catching some well-earned blowback for his decision to force religious institutions “ to pay for health insurance that covers sterilization, contraceptives and abortifacients.” You see, ObamaCare penalizes individuals (employers) who don’t purchase (offer) a certain minimum package of health insurance coverage. The Obama administration is demanding that coverage must include the aforementioned reproductive care services. The exception for religious institutions that object to such coverage is so narrow that, as one wag put it, not even Jesus would qualify. HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius reassures us, “I believe this proposal strikes the appropriate balance between respecting religious freedom and increasing access to important preventive services.” Ummm, Madam Secretary…the Constitution only mentions one of those things. The Catholic church is hopping mad. Even the reliably left-wing E.J. Dionne is angry, writing that the President “utterly botched” the issue “not once but twice” and “threw his progressive Catholic allies under the bus.”

As I wrote over and over as Congress debated ObamaCare, anger and division are inevitable consequences of this law. I recently debated the merits of ObamaCare’s individual mandate on the pages of the Wall Street Journal. Here’s a paragraph that got cut from my essay:

We can be certain…that the mandate will divide the nation. An individual mandate guarantees that the government—not you—will decide what medical services you will purchase, including contraceptives, fertility services that result in the destruction of human embryos, or elective abortions. The same apparatus that can force Americans to subsidize elective abortions can also be used to ban private abortion coverage once the other team wins. The rancor will only grow.

Or as I put it in 2009,

Either the government will force taxpayers to fund abortions, or the restrictions necessary to prevent taxpayer funding will reduce access to abortion coverage. There is no middle ground. Somebody has to lose. Welcome to government-run health care.

The same is true for contraception. The rancor will grow until we repeal this law...

cato-at-liberty.org 

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To: Steve Lokness who wrote (15612)4/25/2012 5:33:13 PM
From: TimF1 Recommendation   of 44214
 
The idea that if you get sick - you should pay for your own care. That is you must have health care insurance so someone else doesn't have to pay for your care.

With the current legal and tax setup, causing more people to get insured will cause more government subsidy for their care, not less.

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Alito’s correct: The individual mandate was never about saving money

By Christopher J. Conover
March 29, 2012, 1:32 pm

According to Justice Ginsburg, the central justification for the individual mandate is to prevent “free riding” by the uninsured, who allegedly impose a cost of more than $1,000 apiece on other health insurance market participants. But the dirty little secret of American healthcare is that the mandate wouldn’t save taxpayers a dime. Why? Because the tax subsidies for people with health insurance are bigger than the unpaid medical bills left behind by the uninsured.

I reported earlier that, on average, uninsured Americans in 2011 generated $1,078 apiece in uncompensated care losses. With 49.9 million uninsured, this amounted to $53.8 billion last year. Leave aside the fact that the mandate will not apply to everyone (e.g., those qualifying for Medicaid) and that careful analysis has shown that the actual amount of uncompensated care that would be averted through a mandate is more likely to be 30% of the total amount of uncompensated care attributable to the uninsured. As the following analysis shows, even if we generously assume that the mandate will eliminate all uncompensated care losses for the uninsured, it will not save taxpayers a single penny!

It turns out that three quarters of the uncompensated care generated by those without coverage is financed by taxpayers, or about $728 per uninsured in 2011. However, for the 169 million Americans with employer-based health plans, federal and state taxpayers finance an average of $1,890 apiece for their health insurance coverage. That is, Uncle Sam (and states) encourages people to buy employer-provided health insurance by not taxing it, a subsidy that amounts to about 36% of premiums for employer-provided family coverage. The $1,890 represents the tax savings provided to those who purchase health insurance rather than receive the same dollar amount in cash wages. In short, most privately insured Americans cost the U.S. taxpayer at least $1,100 more apiece than their uninsured counterparts! So who is doing the free riding here? Admittedly, only three quarters of the uninsured are workers or their dependents, so not all of the uninsured would qualify for the subsidies for employer-sponsored coverage if they obtained insurance. But even taking this into account, this simple analysis demonstrates that it would cost taxpayers about $700 more per uninsured if this “free riding” ended than if it continued.* Note that I am only referring to existing tax subsidies for employer-provided health insurance under current law. If we took into account the much more lavish subsidies that will be provided to newly covered individuals under the Affordable Care Act, the figure would be much higher than $700 per previously uninsured individual.

But what about the one quarter of uncompensated care costs not paid by taxpayers? This amounts to $250 per uninsured and purportedly is borne by those with private health insurance. Subtracting this amount from $700 doesn’t change the conclusion that the typical insured individual costs society/taxpayers more in subsidies than the typical uninsured individual. Nevertheless, it does seem unfair that those with private insurance should bear this burden. But how big is this burden in actuality? As I demonstrated yesterday, cost-shifting by all the uninsured adds about 20 cents a day to the premiums of the average person with private health insurance coverage. But when we exclude all the uninsured individuals who will not be affected by the mandate, the maximum increase in premiums that might be averted by the mandate is only 6 cents a day, or $23 a year! Thus, the actual burden on the average privately insured family that the mandate will avert is less than $100 annually—far, far below the mythical $1,000 figure repeatedly cited this week by Justice Ginsburg.

But using the same logic, the $700 in added taxpayer spending per uninsured would, as a very rough approximation, translate into an added cost of $175 in the taxes paid per privately insured individual—or about $700 per privately insured family of four (this isn’t quite fair, since it does not account for taxpayers with Medicare and Medicaid, but in the grand scheme of things, the amount of taxes paid by such individuals is not that large). Thus, even the privately insured (the group supposedly “burdened” by the free riding of uninsured patients) would pay more if “free riding” were eliminated through an individual mandate than if it continued!

So if the mandate was not about saving money, what was it about? It was about forcing predominantly young people, whose annual healthcare costs are about $850 a year, to purchase coverage costing many thousands of dollars. The mandate was about forcing these individuals to pay for the care of other people (older and sicker) rather than their own care, a point that Justice Alito seems to have grasped quite astutely. But if that’s true, then the individual mandate had nothing to do with a legitimate exercise of the Commerce Clause, but instead was an end-around Congress’s taxing powers. The mandate is a hidden tax cloaked in the guise of making people responsible for their own health bills.

This is the knotty question now facing the Supreme Court. The mandate was a way of avoiding Congress having to impose additional taxes of $360 billion on Americans. The designers of Obamacare were well aware that if the true costs of the bill were accurately identified and taxes transparently increased to cover them, the public never would have supported health reform. This is why they resorted to all manner of smoke and mirrors to hide the true costs and to reliance on hidden taxes such as the individual mandate to further hide from view the burden this plan would impose on Americans. To their credit, the American public appears not to have been fooled. Since the law was passed nearly two year ago, RealClearPolitics.com has tracked more than 100 different polls on the issue. With the exception of one lone CBS/New York Times poll conducted in January 2011, every single poll has shown that those favoring repeal of the health law outnumber those who oppose repeal by margins that in some polls have reached as high as 31 percent. In all but 8 polls, an absolute majority of those surveyed favored repeal. In light of the reality that the individual mandate would actually increase rather than reduce the burden posed by today’s uninsured, it will be interesting to see what the Court ultimately decides about this contentious mandate.

Christopher J. Conover is a research scholar at Duke University’s Center for Health Policy and Inequalities Research, an adjunct scholar at AEI and affiliated senior scholar at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University. His new book American Health Economy Illustrated, was released in February 2012 by AEI Press.

*This adjustment entails multiplying $1,890 by 75% to obtain an “expected” subsidy for employer-based coverage of only $1,418 per average uninsured, yielding a net difference of about $700 rather than $1,100.

blog.american.com 

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To: Steve Lokness who wrote (15621)4/25/2012 5:42:41 PM
From: TimF3 Recommendations   of 44214
 
Get your mind to the idea that this isn't me talking as I wasn't at the meeting

So you saw a TV show, where someone reports that they saw McCain as clueless and unready, and Obama was competent and in charge, and this is somehow supposed to be meaningful to anyone? If you where in the meeting at least it wouldn't be hearsay, but it would still be someone spouting an opinion with no facts or argument to back it up.

And if one accepts it as true anyway, it still wouldn't be very meaningful. If Obama was better prepared the McCain for a particular meeting, even a very important one, that doesn't imply that he is the better person to be president. Its would perhaps be a point in his favor but a pretty small one.

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To: koan who wrote (15643)4/25/2012 5:47:27 PM
From: TimF2 Recommendations   of 44214
 
UK has a 50 percent top tax rate, socialized medicine (not just socialized insurance, but government payed doctors and government owned hospitals, for the general public, not just for the military and VA like in the US), they hardly followed the Republican economic formula, unless your talking about RINOs and "Me Too" Republicans, who support most of the ideas coming from Democrats.

Even narrowly talking about so called austerity - The UK doesn't have austerity, it has one of the largest budget deficits compared to the size of its economy in the world.

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To: TimF who wrote (15656)4/25/2012 5:49:39 PM
From: Steve Lokness1 Recommendation   of 44214
 
<<<<< but it would still be someone spouting an opinion with no facts or argument to back it up.>>>

You just argue everything I think for the sake of hearing yourself argue. Are you a paid shrill of the conservative movement?

It wasn't a show - but a two hour or so documentary. (The second part has yet to air - another two hours I suppose). There was film of the meeting that you seem to question. If you have any genuine honesty - and are not a hustler for some group - you'll watch the documentary. It is amazingly well done!

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To: TimF who wrote (15654)4/25/2012 5:54:00 PM
From: Steve Lokness1 Recommendation   of 44214
 
Look at this post of yours Tim!!!!!!!

You have been hustling us. Who is paying you. If you're not getting paid you should be since you never have an original idea and you NEVER EVER can agree with anything the left or libertarians offer. Nobody is that way NOBODY! So I'm going to just call you mrR from now on and take everything you say with a huge dose of cynicism. ............Must be a slow day for you to drivel on so on health care?

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To: Steve Lokness who wrote (15658)4/25/2012 5:56:49 PM
From: TimF1 Recommendation   of 44214
 
It wasn't a show - but a two hour or so documentary.

Which makes it a specific type of show.

If you have any genuine honesty - and are not a hustler for some group - you'll watch the documentary.

If it made good arguments, then make them. Or at least come up with some better reason for me to spend four hours of my time (including the 2nd part). When Koan presented me with a 10 minute video on another topic, I watched it (and responded to its points), but 4 hours is asking a lot more, esp. based on such a thin read as "At that meeting McCain - according to the piece - didn't have a clue."

I could watch the show, but I already know by your statement that it says he didn't have a clue. I could take your word for the opinion of the show (which I do, I believe your honestly reporting it), or I could waste 4 hours and still just have the opinion of the show.

Even if the show actually showed how he was clueless (and if he did you should be able to relate that), I don't think I would care to watch 4 hours showing me McCain is clueless. I'm not a fan of his anyway, and in any case he's no longer a candidate for president. Clueless or not, he doesn't matter as much now.

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To: Steve Lokness who wrote (15659)4/25/2012 6:02:09 PM
From: TimF2 Recommendations   of 44214
 
Your post doesn't even amount to a good rant, let alone something that answers any of the points in the post it replied to.

The truth is that Obama is very anti-libertarian, and is anti-libertarian even in the social area. Big government in general is anti-libertarian in the social area. The more government pays for health care, the more it takes a side in social issues. It either funds controversial activities involving health care, or it doesn't. If it funds it, its forcing tax payers to pay in controversial social areas. If it doesn't its disadvantaging people on the other side of the issue, who want such coverage, making them pay (through premiums and taxes) for coverage that excludes the points they want, then pay again for what they want. The only libertarian position, or even social libertarian position, is to keep government out of it.

And I oppose a huge conglomeration of new spending and mandates and supposedly that makes me someone who can never agree with what libertarians have to offer? What nonsense. Its statists who are offering this, not libertarians, there is nothing even vaguely libertarian about the PPACA, esp. the parts I've been discussing, but the rest of the bill is a big statist blob as well.

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