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 Coffee Shop | Zeitgeist Movement and The Venus Project


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From: Kitskid11/21/2010 3:33:26 AM
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Insight into Peter Joseph's thinking.

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thezeitgeistmovement.com 


As I will discuss in my new film at length, genetics are controlled by the environment on many levels. In fact evolution itself, over the longest spans of time, is a process of biological/genetic interaction with the environment and only those biological/genetic processes that work in a given environment will survive through natural selection.

There is something called Neural Darwinism. as many might know, three quarters of the human brain develops outside of the womb. We are the only mammal that has this attribute. The great majority of connections that tend to persist for the rest of people's lives happen within the first few years of life. During this time whatever environmental influences are
occurring around this child, from comfort -- to abuse -- starvation, etc. -- are generating a battle of neurological connections and those that fit the logic of the environment will connect. hence Darwinism.

The real effects on the personalities, metabolism and brain development of both Hitler and Gandhi have a strong correlation to both their prenatal and early Years of life. I guarantee you that Hitler had a very interesting childhood...

Just as any language can be learned fluently and easily on average by any race (no genetic determinism), such is culture overall. Hitler had to be culturally indoctrinated into his hatred of other races. Ghandi had to be indoctrinated into his values as well, one way or another- no
to mention his religious affiliation.

A while back, brain scans done on murderers revealed abnormalities of different sections of the prefrontal cortex. this was esteemed as a finding in favor of genetic determinism... it was later found out that those areas were actually forms of brain damage which were not genetic but occurred because of various environmental influences. The same goes for addictions both chemical and psychological( like sex addicts or alcoholics)

Overall, the only attributes of the human form which can modulate human behavior are severe genetic mutations along with severehormonal and neurochemical imbalances. These issues do not cause any type of specific behavior but will amplify different types of behavior.


So, the issue of Ghandi and Hitler is more or less rhetorical, for there is likely no way to test that given the extremity and specifics of both of their upbringings- just as with any human pair. But the general logic of malleability and variety of the human being holds true.

Also, there is a new science called Epigenetics, which, loosely speaking, shows how experience generated traits essentially can exist, even through generations, but do not change the DNA at all. Very interesting

In the end, environment is king and genes are slaves to the environment in an evolutionary sense on multiple levels. In fact, on the largest scale, again - the environment is what decides which genes live and which genes die.

peter joseph

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From: Kitskid11/23/2010 1:22:10 AM
   of 36
 
An Open Letter from Prometheuspan:



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rbefoundation.com 



An Open Letter to TZM/ TVP

Hello.

A little over a year ago, I, Prometheuspan, joined the forum and began working there in a very focused manner in three main veins.

1. Clarifying and defending the positions of the movement as could be done using knowledge from the sciences in situations where people were attacking or questioning the movement.

2. Asking for clarity and lucidity to move forward with a strong project on the wiki to actually begin working the assorted problems the "Movement" has laid on the table but failed to address.
(PJ even admits in some places he doesn't have answers to some problems, which, I do.)

3. Addressing the internal organizational aspects of the forum which were failing, IE, the lack of a lucid metaprocess.

The Story is long and detailed, but this is what it comes down to. VTV was openly attacking and verbally abusing a person who was reality testing the forum. In PM I contacted that person and made peace with them, and having done that, I contacted VTV. He more or less cussed me out and told me I was wrong, and that the person wasn't reachable and that I had no Idea what I was talking about. The actual reality is that I have advanced knowledge of psychology, I had in fact made peace with the person in question in PM, and VTV was rabidly attacking this person instead of answering their hard questions.

Having worked quite diligently up to several hundred posts to help the movement, I decided to test my political capital and more importantly, the lucidity and culpability of the movement, and set
to solving a few other problems, such as the glaring problem that TVP/TZM alienates and diabolizes religious people instead of finding a way to include them. I generated several threads in the religion area to educate and inform the public about where and how science had found the things that religions are about and in specific, alpha brainwave states.

VTV then walked into that thread, attacked me personally, said that I didn't know what I was talking about when in fact I am an expert on the subject, and between him and thunder they tossed out a few dozen ad hominems at me. But they couldn't win in any real argument, because I also know formal conversational logic, and so I was banned in order to silence me.

No less than 4 threads were started to protest my banning, and what it comes down to is very simple. I did not break any rules. VTV and Thunder BOTH attacked me, and both did so in a thread I set up to make the point. Alpha brainwave states are a fact of science, and they are the state of consciousness from which operates the immediate subconscious mind. By walking into that thread and calling me crazy and ignorant, what both of them in fact proved is their crazyness and ignorance, as well as their total willingness to openly flauntingly break the rules.

This is the pattern on the forum, and this is what creates the group think there. VTV and Thunder are habitually and chronically abusive, and nothing is done about this problem.

People with real knowledge and information to offer and help the movement are thus shut out, and the result is that TVP/TZM has 1001 problems it can't solve because it always alienates experts.
It does this solely because two or five people are pretending to have knowledge and expertise they don't, and so in defense of their ignorance and because of that, they keep the movement itself ignorant.

So long as this goes on, the "Movement" will not "move". It will not solve any real problems, and in fact it can only be an obstacle to those of us who are in fact working the problems.

Without a solid metaprocess, any such organization is doomed. Without a way to deal with real trolling behaviors wisely as well as deal with difficult but non trolling behaviors wisely, the result
is going to be dealing with such situations in ways that are self defeating. And that protection must work two ways. IF it is okay for VTV and Thunder to openly attack people and use ad hominems
against them, then it is a double standard to disallow the participants retaliation. The actual reality on the forum is however that most people know that there are 50 taboo subjects which bringing up can be cause for banning. They have been silenced before, seen people be banned before, and they know that such topics are off limits. Everyone is walking on eggshells. Everyone is trying to imagine that the elephants pooping in the living room aren't real.

Between Jaques and PJ and VTV, the lot of them have knowledge approximately equal to half a dozen Bachelors degrees. Jaques may even have knowledge equal to a masters or two. And with that much knowledge, they seem to want to play a game of religious dispensationalism, where all truth comes from their top and everyone else is too stupid or just not part of their in crowd. Jaques claims to be a modern Davinci ring pretty hollow compared to my much more real situation, but if you guys think he can sing in 5 octaves or play a musical instrument, or operate autocad, I'd be
very amused to hang out with him and form a band. Or even just a design group. I have twenty auto-didactic PhDs. I am a genuine article high level polymath. And you banned me from your forum
for pointing out that VTV was being abusive, and because he literally could not hope to defend his actions, the only way he could "win" was to ban me. The problem with this is that thusly, the entire "Movement" loses.

I know that the supposed means to rejoining the forum is to contact the now secret police force and beg their forgiveness and apologize for my wrong doing. The problem is, I haven't done anything wrong. So I don't have any apologies to make, and I can't in any way sincerely approach that situation.

In any case, as is, I find the entire thing to be a disaster, and disgusting. Having Secret Police only affirms the harsh reality that the actual form of government employed on the forum is Totalitarianism. And thats a problem. Because if the "movement" promises x,Y,and Z, but in fact the actual manifested social order they are in fact employing and using on the forum is Totalitarian Fascism and Dispensational Theocracy (just wait till the next movie, it will explain everything...) Then the "Movement" has walked itself into a very dark, and very abysmal dead end, and most people
will spend less than one day on the Forums and move on, grokking rightly that the actual difference between theory and practice has shown the situation to be fatally flawed.

I do sympathize. I know that running a forum is hard, and that running a forum with people trying to troll you is harder. But there are real -if more complicated- solutions to those problems that don't require you to embody everything you claimed to stand against.

I offered a large amount of such solutions to the forum while I was there, however, such materials were mostly ignored.

You can not hope to win over the population by continuing on this path of censorship, Abuse, lies, and libel. Every person that you ban because you had to shut them up after personally attacking them is another witness against the "movement" and that stacks up over time. There are now easily more people active on the net AGAINST the "movement" than there are for it.

Change is never easy, but failure to secure a better future is even harder. If you want real solutions to such problems, then I have those solutions handy. You can always stop by RBEF, and we won't ban you for making difficult conversations, lock threads, censor you, delete your posts, or delete your threads. And the point should be made that no matter how easy that seems to work over
the short term, what it actually does to the "movement" over the long term is condemn it like so many others to the dustbin of history.

There are lessons to learn from history and one key lesson "the movement" needs to learn is that the end does not justify the means.

No matter what you may think is going to happen, or how this will play out, the simple truth is that RBEF will overtake and eventually eclipse TZM/TVP because of these core fatal flaws.

Game and System Theory both tell us that this is an absolute. You can not continue to abuse 10 percent of the newbies and maintain a dysfunctional family style silence of eggshells, and grow
in any considerable fashion. To put it in sociology terms, there are only so many positions available in orbital pack psychology sociology, once those positions are filled the absolute growth potential
for participants is thus reached, and that number is very low- about 30 or 50 persons.

Yes, I know that there are all sorts of people active in "the movement" but I am talking about the movements core, and its core growth potential.

In truth there are only a few hundred active participants, and most of those are only active a few hours per week or month. The core participant base is organized along pack psychology lines, in three tiers, and that means three packs.

Jaques is very poor at filling his pack base limit, he manages to keep only a fraction of his orbital positions filled, and the same thing goes for VTV. PJ on the other hand is very good at it, and thats why the participant base is PJ centered.


What can not happen with such a system in place is formation of egalitarian communities, being taken seriously by any kind of real world academia or media, or forming meaningful think tanks to actually solve high order problems.

As I told VTV right before I was banned. One way or another I will solve all of these problems or bring them to work via the public. IF "The movement" can only make of itself one more problem to be solved, so be it. I just celebrated my 4000th post on RBEF, and I am an Admin and Facilitator there.

Aside from this, this letter over all is an olive branch. The point of this letter is not to make "the movement" wrong, but to offer it the help it must have to grow out of the stuck 3 year old
condition it now inhabits. Social organizations tend to age in reflection of human life span cycles. We project into them from our sublimated experiential level. Being 3 years old 2 years running is an unfortunate proof that "the movement" is camped out in a dead end. I know this labyrinth and I know the way out. We can work together to solve humanities problems, but I will not be treated like garbage just to satisfy the ego needs of VTV and Thunder.


You people owe me, and the other members of RBEF apologies and re-instatement and you owe yourselves the kind of help and progress that only people like us can give you.

I Will await your timely response, and hope for the best.

Sincerely, Prometheuspan.

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From: Kitskid12/15/2010 1:21:07 AM
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zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com 

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From: Kitskid12/30/2010 1:57:44 AM
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theresourcebasedeconomy.com 

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From: Kitskid1/2/2011 2:49:59 AM
   of 36
 

RBECiv is a Civilization Game:

About
RBECiv is a Civilization game based off FreeCiv code, oriented toward evolving Civilization with new technology, new buildings, units and real RBE groups such as AOSDT. You will be able to play through transitional phase scenarios, interaction with alien species, discover different types of governments such as "Computer AI" and of course, conquer like our uncivilized species does.

Of course, this game will be criticizing other groups that are factional, hypocritical, cultist, et cetera. You will be able to play as the Cult of Zeitgeist (The Zeitgeist Movement), however your government and technology will be limited. This is done to somewhat criticize the Cult of Zeitgeist for their chaotic structuring, dictatorship-like leadership, cultist behaviors.



globalcommunityportal.com 


,..

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From: Kitskid1/12/2011 1:59:44 AM
   of 36
 
>SNIP<------ Prometheuspan on Mob Psychology:


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rbefoundation.com 


ochlocracy

en.wikipedia.org 

en.wikipedia.org 

dictionary.reference.com 

en.wikipedia.org 

en.wikipedia.org 

homepage.mac.com 

The first thing I did when I started researching Mob Psychology was to figure out the direction I wanted to go on this topic. Mob Psychology has many different aspects, and I decided I needed to narrow my search. I decided to eliminate research on Freudian theories because I am not interested in the unconscious state of mind and the technical writings of Freud. I also decided to eliminate most of the evolutionary and scientific ideas on Mob Psychology. The things I am interested in are the motives people have for joining "mobs" and deindividuation, which is when you lose your sense of individuality.

The first place I looked for information on Mob Psychology was the Internet. I had a little trouble finding the right keywords, because group thinking, crowd mentality, herd instinct, and many other terms for Mob Psychology that mean basically the same thing. But I've managed to find a fair amount of information on my subject. I went to the library and got some good information from the Encyclopedia of Psychology, but I failed to find any books that were good enough and focused on my topic. All the ones I did look at were either way too technical or fiction books that incorporated mob psychology into the story line. I think I will look into some of the fiction books and do some of my own psychoanalysis on the characters in the books. I checked out Lord of the Flies at the movie rentals and it used mob psychology as a central part of the story. I have been somewhat disappointed by the people who I have asked to help me with my topic. Most people either pointed me to books about Al Capone or the DVD of the third season of "The Sopranos," or they just plain didn't know what mob psychology is.

For the most part, the Internet has been the most helpful research tool for my topic. It is definitely the fastest way to separate out what I want to learn about Mob Psychology from the huge pile of information on psychology. I found a very good video stream on the Internet that is an interview done by the professor in New Zealand that I sent my letter to. He talks about everything that I'm looking for with my I Search. I still plan on getting a fiction book that has good examples of mob psychology. I want to read Lord of the Flies book even after seeing the movie, as well as another book.

I found some great information about deindividuation in some books, and the motives behind it. One of the motives for joining a mob is having anonymity. The Ku Klux Klan wore hoods to hide their identity and also so that they couldn't be singled out in the crowd and be responsible for their own actions. Another motive for joining a mob is avoiding negative evaluation by the group. Everyone strives to be accepted, and if you aren't part of the crowd you're probably the enemy. When you join a mob you are put under its security and defense, and you're never punished as long as the mob has control of a situation. Another motive for joining a mob is dropping your individual responsibility. Blame can no longer be placed on an individual, but now the entire group has responsibility for any of its members. Isolation and loneliness are other motives for joining a group.

Another interesting part of mob psychology is the loss of individuality when you merge into a crowd. Self-awareness and self-regulation suffer when you join a mob. You lose your sense of right and wrong, often leading you to do things you would never normally do. You become more prone to act on immediate stimuli and lose your sense of foresight.

This type of psychology can be classified into two groups, passive and active. An example of a passive group is a sports audience. The audience boos when everyone else boos and they cheer when everyone else cheers. An example of an active group is a riot. People destroy and vandalize for sometimes-unclear reasons. They do that because everyone else is doing it. Personally, I am more interested in passive groups and their mentality.

Many months ago, before I had even started thinking about the I Search, I heard about something called Flash Mobs. Flash Mobs are organized mobs that meet at a designated time, do some random activity, and then disperse. For example, people would have instructions to meet at Memorial Park at precisely 2:42 pm and make a giant human circle. Next they would play duck duck goose for 7 minutes, and at exactly 2:49 they would all run away as fast as they could in all different directions. Flash Mobs are organized over the Internet. The leader sends out an email to a few hundred others who usually participate, giving them instructions on where to meet, what they'll do, and at what times.

I googled "Flash Mobs" and I found a Yahoo group based in San Francisco full of people who regularly participated in Flash Mobs. I signed up for the group, joining the 2,600 other people who had already joined. Sadly, the site has been very quiet, and there haven't been any new Flash Mobs since I joined.

What interests me about Flash Mobs is the number of people who participate, usually in the hundreds, and why they do it. One leader tells hundreds of people what to do, and they do it. It's that easy, taking very little power and effort to get people to do what you want. I think people do these Flash Mobs mostly for fun to get away from the office. But there is definitely mob psychology at play. For example, there was one Flash Mob outside of a BART station in San Francisco where 150 people stood outside with cameras and notepads and greeted everyone who came out of the station as a celebrity, taking pictures and asking for autographs. Certainly, one person would never do this on his/her own. Flash mobs are definitely a weird urban phenomenon that wouldn't be possible without the Internet.

I received a letter from one of the people I wrote to for my letters on February 17th. The person I wrote to is a sociology professor at Canterbury University in New Zealand whom I watched in an interview on the Internet. I asked him many questions in my letter, and he answered all of them very clearly and with great detail. He talked about the U.S. soldiers who massacred 500 civilians in a village in Vietnam. He said that it would have been impossible for them to do if they weren't under the influence of crowd behavior. He talked about how leaders are often the most hysterical and fanatical. One interesting thing he emphasized was that people who join one group often join many others later in their lifetimes. He gave the example of gang members joining extreme religious groups when they got older. Another interesting thing he said was that when people join crowds, they don't give up their sense of right and wrong, they just morph their sense of right and wrong to those of the crowds'.

He recommended a book for me, The True Believer by Eric Hoffer. My mom happened to have it on one of her bookshelves, and she gave it to me to read. The book is about mass movements and the fanatics who participate in them. It has tons of good examples of mass movements, including the Nazification of Germany and the rapid modernization of Japan. I found the book very dry, and it was hard to decipher what it was trying to say.

It covered almost of the points of Mob Psychology that I have studied, but mostly on a larger scale. While I have been studying mob psychology in small groups, this book was about movements on national and global scales. The book also included information about religious movements, which is an area of mob psychology that I have not studied much. It amazes me that religious fanatics can preach weird philosophies and that people will believe them and be willing to die for someone else's cause. All of today's major religions became popular on what I believe is that principle of mob psychology. Overall, I much preferred the book that I read for my book report, Among the Thugs, than The True Believer.

Nancy Ulmer, the person I interviewed for my fourth paper, suggested that I watch The Crucible, a movie about the Salem Witch Trials. She suggested it because it displays very well the mob hysteria that consumed Salem during that time period. I rented it at Five Star that night and watched it. In the movie, a group of about 15 girls start a panic in their town when they all start acting very strangely. Their leader, Abigail (played by Winona Ryder), gets the girls to all behave like they were seeing the devil and they were being tortured by the devil's agents, who happened to be people in the town whom Abigail didn't like. The town eats up everything they say and do, putting people in jail and hanging them because the girls insisted they were practicing witchcraft. These girls merely had to name someone that they had "seen" doing some strange activity and they would be arrested. The girls would follow their leader, Abigail, in anything she did. If she pointed at some invisible thing on the ceiling and started screaming, they would follow her, yelling and wailing at this invisible figment of their imagination. This movie documented the phenomenon all started by one little girl who managed to get 80 people in jail for ìwitchcraftî and all the people in the town who believed them. I enjoyed this movie a lot and I am glad that Nancy suggested it to me.

Another suggestion I got from Nancy Ulmer was that I research Jonestown and how mob psychology played a part in it. Jonestown was where a very strange incident took place: Bay Area citizens moved from their homes to a secluded jungle in Guyana, South America. They were following their leader, Jim Jones, an influential Minister who managed to coax about 1,100 people to his commune, called the People's Temple. When a U.S. senator, Leo Ryan, came to the commune to investigate, he was murdered by gunmen belonging to the People's Temple. This sparked a media uproar, but not before Jim Jones convinced his people to drink poisoned Kool-Aid in a mass suicide. Nine-hundred thirteen people died in the suicide, making this the biggest mass suicide ever recorded.

The mob psychology in all of this is centered around the fanatical Jim Jones and the willingness of his followers to do whatever he told them to do. First, he told them to move to the jungle and then he told them to commit suicide, which they did. This is one of the most outstanding and freakish instances of mob psychology. The people at Jonestown remind me of lemmings, falling to their death without ever looking back. Incidences like these are bound to happen again, and they can hardly be prevented. I am learning more about Jonestown all the time, and am hoping to find more material about it at the library.

I rented Lord of the Flies on my mom's suggestion. Lord of the Flies is about a bunch of kids who get stranded on an island and they squabble over leadership and break into different groups. One of the most vivid connections with Mob Psychology this movie has is in a scene where a group of kids wearing face paint and hollering war cries start a mob and kill another one of the kids, a behavior that none of the people in the mob would ever have dreamed about doing anything close what they did. They went into a mad craze and killed the kid just because everyone in the group was doing it. I found a quote on the Internet about killing and mob psychology:

"Of tribal warriors in Africa, those who wore face paint or other masks while in battle (i.e., depersonalize themselves) are more likely to kill their enemy in battle than those who did not."

This is a great example of anonymity and deindividuation, and the stronger results of the group that used deindividuation. The warriors were in a state where everyone was fighting for the same thing and no one ever thought of themselves and their self-preservation, making them even more dangerous. One psychologist's theory gives a good reason for joining a mob:

"You act in a mob because if everyone is acting a certain way, the actions cannot be wrong. The mob's behavior is 'correct.'"

I think this an excellent analysis of why people join mobs. If a mob is in control of a situation, it must have something good going for it. People like to be on the good side of things. And once you've joined mob, there is no question if you are right...because you are.

The information that surprised me was the amount of violence and destruction that was related to a "mob." When I started researching mob psychology, everything was kind of boring because I was researching action, and yet everything I was working with was on paper. I couldn't wait until I did my on-site observation because I thought I'd be able to observe exactly what I had been reading about. Early on, a lot of the searches I did turned up some weird references to mob psychology. But as I learned more about mob psychology and the lingo that goes with it, I was able to refine my searches and turn up better information. Some of the weird references to mob psychology were about the stock market and in religiously-oriented writings. I think the religious aspect of mob psychology is that the priests have power over many people because the people tend to believe anything their priest says, and they act accordingly as a passive group. It has been kind of weird to have religion mixed in with my research.

In the beginning, it was very hard finding books on my topic. I think the reason it was so hard was because I didn't know a lot of the terms used in mob psychology, so google searching for books was difficult. At the beginning of this assignment, I was more interested in passive mobs and the way they work, but I have found that active and aggressive mobs are a lot more interesting to study. When I sent my letters, I didn't expect to get replies because both of the people I wrote to are college professors and were probably very busy, but I was pleasantly surprised when I got a letter back from one of them. I also didn't have big expectations for my parent network person, but they turned out to be the person who I interviewed, which was very convenient. Overall, I think I was pretty lucky in finding my information. In the beginning, I was a little scared because I had no idea what I was going to do for most of my major papers. Being able to observe a mob that formed when a seal came ashore was very lucky, as was having my cousin happen to know of a great book about mob psychology.

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From: Kitskid3/9/2011 1:49:11 AM
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rebirthofreason.com 

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From: Kitskid4/9/2011 2:36:21 AM
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About The Director Eric Merola>
---------------------------------

burzynskimovie.com 

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From: Kitskid4/15/2011 1:02:44 AM
   of 36
 
thezeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com 

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From: Kitskid4/15/2011 3:08:42 AM
   of 36
 
Jacque Fresco/Peter Joseph RIFT:
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thezeitgeistmovement.com 

So, in consideration of this, with respect to Jacque - I will no longer be actively publicly representing TZM or TVP.
I could address his hasty statements directly, but I am not going to do that to myself as it's simply sad.

This falls on the heels of a level of personal exhaustion and general life frustration which requires personal time anyway.

I will continue to orient a radio show rotation of new speakers, content and help with event days and the many other project based issues in the background... I will also continue to personally finance the global movement's work...but I want everyone to know that I am removing myself as a forefront spokesman... a figure I never wanted to be, in fact. A position which has neg affected my personal and mental health a great deal, to be frank.

So, this is good grounds to see how many out there can lift themselves to high levels of communication. I have also informed TVP that all major press will be turned over to them so they can make sure "their" message is "accurate"... as apparently mine isn't.

At the end of the day, let it be known that I don't care about TZM or TVP or "Jacque Fresco" or "Peter Joseph" as entities to be perpetuated.

I care about a new, working social system only and I will not stop with that pursuit in the long run.

~peter

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