Politics | Actual left/right wing discussion


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To: neolib who wrote (9093)12/16/2010 2:50:00 PM
From: Lane31 Recommendation   of 10071
 
Think Mugabe.

There you had a democratically elected official who dismantled the wealth of the rich. As you said, it did not end well. But that was triggered by the dismantling of the concentrated wealth, not by the concentration, was it not?

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To: Lane3 who wrote (9102)12/16/2010 3:11:48 PM
From: neolib   of 10071
 
Zimbabwe is a good example, because the original problem was a wealth imbalance which had race thrown in to the mix. Rhodesia was a democracy, but one that had elements of Mqs ideas: It had something amounting to a poll tax. You had to have a certain educational/financial standing to be eligible to vote. This effectively is how the whites controlled the country, with only 5% of the population, even though in theory, any black could attain voting rights.

Not surprisingly, this resulted in non-democratic means of correcting the problem. But when those means prevailed, Mugabe then concentrated the wealth much further, taking from the 5% mostly to himself (he's considered a multi-billionaire), his family, and the other upper henchmen in his party.

Its true that he gave land taken from the 5% to a wider base, but land "wealth" depends on whether its worth living in the country, and Mugabe's other main accomplishment has been to destroy what wealth he didn't steal. So the net effect is that today the 95% is way worse off than they were when the 5% were still around.

Your question was interesting, because there is an argument that democracy should be self-correcting against some types of imbalances. Why is it sometimes not?

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To: neolib who wrote (9103)12/16/2010 3:27:14 PM
From: Lane31 Recommendation   of 10071
 
Zimbabwe is a good example

It's an interesting one, but it has a lot of confounding variables, which weaken its applicability.

Re offering explanations, it's interesting to me that you offered an example rather than dots in response. FWIW.

Why is it sometimes not?

Quality of the electorate, for one, willingness of the best qualified to run, for another. Our culture does not facilitate either, IMO. And then there's always inattention and apathy.

Re our electorate and concentrated wealth, it seems to me that the greater problem is the expansion on the other end. When government is viewed as an equalizer and wealth distributor and when fewer than half of us are adding to the pot, there's an inevitable consumption of the seed corn.

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From: one_less12/16/2010 3:46:46 PM
1 Recommendation   of 10071
 
Henry Mancini wrote "Moon River" specifically for Audrey Hepburn.

youtube.com 

Blake Edwards director of 'Breakfast at Tiffany's' has died at 88.

msnbc.msn.com 

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To: Lane3 who wrote (9104)12/16/2010 4:16:34 PM
From: neolib1 Recommendation   of 10071
 
Re our electorate and concentrated wealth, it seems to me that the greater problem is the expansion on the other end. When government is viewed as an equalizer and wealth distributor and when fewer than half of us are adding to the pot, there's an inevitable consumption of the seed corn.

This is exactly the argument made by the whites in Rhodesia: They brought the vast bulk of the knowledge & $ needed to run a country, (and the blacks benefitted as a result), therefore they (the whites) should have the bulk of the say in how to run the place. Looking at whats happened since, would appear to vindicate this view.

But that does not change the fact that the 95% hated how things were, even if intellectually some of them (many in fact) were well aware that life in Rhodesia was much nicer than any of their black run neighbors at the time.

I agree, that the drift towards a large fraction of voters in the USA (approaching 50%) net receiving $ from the government (to them its a source of wealth) is alarming. But my approach to solving that would be to look at any methods which increase the economic prospects of the lower end of the spectrum.

Having said that, I find it interesting that only our species has created a system where wealth is concentrated into dynasties (this is much different than evolution/natural selection gene survival BTW). This is a result of "civilization" and "rule of law". I find it an interesting question as to whether this was wise or not. Its not just wealth either. There is a trend of setting up land use restrictions, (read up on land trusts) where one generation attempts to dictate the long term use of land. Again, there is no equivalent to this notion outside of civilized humans on the planet. Of course it breaks down if the civilization breaks down, but ignoring that, is it wise? Why should I, owning some land for the short duration of my life, think that I have any "right" to direct what transpires there long after I'm dead?

To the degree that civilization & rule of law has decided to back ideas which have no precedent in other biological systems, one should at least anticipate unexpected consequences. Note that we keep finding out more about the biological underpinnings of "fairness" and why it might inspire the downtrodden to cut off their nose to spite their face from outwards observation. Again, a fascinating issue, and we know very little about it.

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To: koan who wrote (9101)12/16/2010 4:24:32 PM
From: Oeconomicus2 Recommendations   of 10071
 
"INDIVIDUALS pay no state income taxes. . . Yes, we tax corporations at the rate they should be taxed-lol."

If you think individuals - particularly consumers and workers - do not bear the burden of corporate taxes, you are sadly mistaken. Corporations do not pay income taxes, even when they write the checks. Their customers, their employees, and their shareholders pay them.

As for the rest, yeah yeah yeah. Everything bad in AK is because of some "right winger" and everything good is because of the good work of socialists and progressives (if that's not redundant) like you. Whatever.

BTW, you should really reconsider your practice of ending every third or fourth sentence with "-lol". Someone might mistake you for a 13 year old girl.

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To: neolib who wrote (9106)12/16/2010 4:38:29 PM
From: Lane3   of 10071
 
therefore they (the whites) should have the bulk of the say in how to run the place

Yes, that was my point to my friend. If you want to expand the middle class to move threshold of contribution to a safer level, do something designed with that objective. Just just sucking up the wealth of the rich doesn't get you there, best I can tell.

is it wise?

Oh, my! There goes my will...

Note that we keep finding out more about the biological underpinnings of "fairness"

Huh?

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To: neolib who wrote (9093)12/16/2010 5:02:16 PM
From: one_less1 Recommendation   of 10071
 
"You can buy votes & protection if you are rich enough.

Isn't the lobby system another venue toward that end, no less corrupt but less easily associated to a class?

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To: Oeconomicus who wrote (9087)12/16/2010 5:14:59 PM
From: Brumar89   of 10071
 
I wonder what % of AK's state revenues come from those evil oil companies?

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To: Lane3 who wrote (9108)12/16/2010 5:16:05 PM
From: neolib   of 10071
 
Huh?

A number of studies over the last few years have started to shed some light. Still mighty murky, but its beginning to lift the subject out of the confines of philosophy, and into a bit more concrete reality. Certain ideological perspectives think "fairness" is a dirty word, but I suspect its going to have a significant place in the end. No different than altruism, which has been a source of much frustration for evolutionary theorists for a long time.

Google Dogs, Monkeys Fairness. I think there might have been a bird one as well. Don't recall.

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