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 Politics | Stockman Scott's Political Debate Porch


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To: Farmboy who wrote (87936)5/3/2012 11:10:26 PM
From: Cautious_Optimist   of 89452
 
You should go back and read what I wrote.

Almost everyone who didn't jump to the innocence of Zimmerman, including the Martin family, asked for an arrest and trial. That is all.

Immediately the fake racist images of Martin as a thug, went viral. The decades old boogeymen African American strawmen were rediscovered and went viral too, as did the vitriolic attacks on Al Sharpton and even President Obama.

Nobody suggested here or in civil media, that Zimmerman shouldn't receive the due process the rights he took away from Trayvon Martin, whether Zimmerman is convicted or not -- Martin does not get a single day in court.

Clearly the unarmed Trayvon Martin would have made a case for "Stand Your Ground" had he survived the vigilante's gun. He won't get that opportunity; there is only Zimmerman's word. Including "these assholes always get away" -- a clear case of profiling that advanced the decision to charge Zimmerman; which even you can't deny.

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To: longnshort who wrote (87920)5/3/2012 11:17:40 PM
From: joseffy   of 89452
 

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To: Farmboy who wrote (87937)5/3/2012 11:20:31 PM
From: Cautious_Optimist   of 89452
 
You use terms like "ghetto ho" and call other posters juvenile names, and expect to be taken seriously??

And who the hell are you to judge woman's fashions?? Are you into such matters?? Its okay with me if you come out of the closet.

Get off the sanctimony, this is America not Saudi Arabia, she was at a Los Angeles TV Awards ceremony and she looked amazing and vibrant.

Your vitriol and hate for American culture knows no bounds.

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To: Cautious_Optimist who wrote (87934)5/3/2012 11:32:23 PM
From: Hawkmoon   of 89452
 
"pursuit of happiness" ....

....does not equate to the guarantee of happiness and there is nothing in it that can be interpreted as creating a welfare state where liberals tell us the quickest way to create jobs is the extend unemployment benefits and put people on food stamps. Stop giving stuff away to able bodied people.. Give them a job instead of welfare.. At least the taxpayers get some kind of ROI from Workfare..

but we are mature and wise enough to know they did not mean to exclude women.

Rewriting history again? Women didn't get the right to vote for over 130 years after that Declaration of Independence was written.

That tells me that they had NO INTENTION of giving women the right to vote at that time..

Hawk

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To: Hawkmoon who wrote (87941)5/4/2012 1:48:18 AM
From: Cautious_Optimist   of 89452
 
So the word "life" would not mean feeding the hungry to you? What does it mean then?? Oh I know, its always their choice.

I forgot, you only care (well, some) from ovulation to birth, then its tough shit if you are sick or hungry while without sufficient cash. "Life liberty and happiness before birth." Then, especially if you weren't born on at least first base, just "get a job!" Its so simple. "Christian" family values not socialism!!

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To: Cautious_Optimist who wrote (87942)5/4/2012 3:34:18 AM
From: Hawkmoon3 Recommendations   of 89452
 
So the word "life" would not mean feeding the hungry to you?

Teach a man to fish and you feed him for life (and likely his family as well.)

You want to feed people from day to day.. I want to help them feed themselves and RETAIN the respect that comes from knowing they worked for that paycheck.

You want to make them dependent upon the gov't so you can control them and get them to vote for your liberal agendas (on pain of having their benefits cut)..

Do you have something against making able bodied individuals earn the money you want to "dole" out to them? Do you have something against work?

We've had the National Debt nearly doubled under this administration and we still have tens of millions on Food Stamps, and nearly 20% effective unemployment (the basic stats only cover those still eligible and drawing unemployment, not those who's benefits have run out).

Where did all the trillions of dollars go C_O?? Why wasn't that money offered as a "labor bailout" to small and mid-size business to retain, train, and rehire, workers? If we have to spend the money to sustain people's ability to eat, then isn't it better to do in coordination with the private sector, or by putting them to work on infrastructure projects?

As for my "christian" values, let me give you an example (and I'll try and keep it short).

I have a neighbor who, a year ago, became a material witness in a home invasion and kidnapping, where two people he had known for years, and two of their associates, entered a residence and held a husband and wife hostage at gunpoint while they ransacked it. They made off with over $50K worth of cash, gold, and silver, which they subsequently used to purchase drugs.

Because of his close association with two of the perpetrators, at first he was considered a person of interest, if not a suspect. He was "interviewed" (interrogated) 4 different times, threatened, held against his will, had spurious rumours spread about him at his place of employment, and eventually lost his job as a result. Over the course of last summer, everything he had worked for was taken from him and relapsed into drinking (he's a recovering alcoholic). He became so distraught from the incredible pressure of the investigation, and consumed with fear that he would be targeted as a "Rat" for what he knew about the case, that he started drinking again and wound up getting a Felony DUI in a different country from where kidnapping crime was committed.

I bailed him out of jail last fall, but his driving privileges were revoked and he couldn't hold a job due to lack of transporation and his obligations as a material witness. Three of the defendants copped a plea and the last defendant was claiming he was not directly involved, asserting he was only the driver. My friend knew otherwise based upon statements his friend has subsequently made to him after the crime. He was the KEY witness in this case (the last defendant copped a plea just last week and now my friend doesn't have to testify).

He's had several promising jobs since last fall, but all have fallen apart due to this burglary/kidnapping case (one employer fired him for receiving a subpoena to testify, citing that he would be unavailable to work)..
So you know what he does to make ends meet? He works for us doing odd jobs and performing landscaping on my mother's home. The landscape work is not really needed at this time, but we offer him the work as it preserves his pride and acts as "therapy" towards staying clean.

All this time the only "deal" he has asked for is to have his Felony DUI charge reduced to a misdemeanor, so that he can avoid the possibility of a prison sentence where his safety would be in jeopardy for being a "Rat" (this is serious.. he's already been threatened by friends of the perpetrators). Also, if he receives a felony, he can no longer work as a Nurse, a position he spent years of training to obtain. He's been to over 200 AA meetings over the past 6 months. And he's willing to continue court order treatment, and have an interlock placed on his vehicle to protect the public safety.

One of his attorneys (who I paid for), was aghast that the prosecutor in the DUI case was unwilling to take into account my friends cooperation as a Material Witness to consider reducing, or dropping, the charge, since such deals are commonly offered to drug dealers/users for the purpose of taking down a bigger criminal. The prosecutor won't settle for anything less than a felony. Said prosecutor wrote a letter claiming that his DUI was more grievous than a drug user and a deal was not warranted. This despite the fact that my friend's testimony helped put away 4 people who held innocent people at gunpoint, all for the purpose of obtaining money to buy drugs.

And all of this time, my friend continues to be grateful that we're willing to give him work to do.. I could just give him money to sustain himself, but he wants to work, and I'm more than happy to create "make work" so that he retains his sense of pride until his DUI case is resolved and he can ascertain what lies in his future..

All of this because he chose to cooperate as a material witness in this case, doing the right and honorable thing. I know that he'll never be able to fully pay off the debt he owes to me for posting bail and paying for legal representation, and ultimately I'll probably just forgive the debt and turn it into a gift.

I firmly believe that, had he not had his life destroyed by being involved as a witness in this case, he never would have resumed drinking which eventually led to his DUI. But having your life destroyed by overzealous detectives (who later verbally apologized to him) tends to make one default back to addictive behaviors.

So do I just care about people from "ovulation to birth".. The above should provide my answer to you.. It's what I've been doing since I returned from Asia a few weeks ago..

Hawk

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To: Hawkmoon who wrote (87943)5/4/2012 9:09:06 AM
From: Cautious_Optimist   of 89452
 
<<Teach a man to fish and you feed him for life (and likely his family as well.)>>

Very true. and not funding public education well is the biggest threat, as is the special needs of the poor kids or those from dysfunctional families who are not on anything near a level playing field. It ends up costing us more as a society if we do nothing early.

However there are short-term needs of people for food, shelter and health care, and we can't turn our backs. using emergency rooms as doctors offices is stupidly expensive; so is hunger.

Conservatives are correct that there are abuses and people who are not motivated to leave public assistance who could; There are a few who "game" the system not unlike some businesses. And of course a percentage of people and businesses choose out-and-out crime, making calculated economic decisions based on the risks and rewards. Much of it is politics -- the left for individuals at the bottom and the GOP cigar smokers for old corporations on the forever government nipples.

Labor unions are legal, and are certainly not motivating people not to work.

Your story about your neighbor shows that you are a kind person, that has nothing to do with politics. We have both bailed out friends, I have probably unwittingly enabled a few alcoholics and cokeheads in order to help bring a percentage of them to soberness and life..

Addiction is a pedestal of much crime, the biggest threat to a community and families too-- and police and prosecutors are part of an economic enterprise that is the FUBARED apolitical "war on drugs."





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To: Cautious_Optimist who wrote (87942)5/4/2012 10:09:53 AM
From: joseffy   of 89452
 
We've had the National Debt nearly doubled under this administration

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To: Cautious_Optimist who wrote (87944)5/4/2012 10:39:42 AM
From: Hawkmoon   of 89452
 
not funding public education well is the biggest threat, as is the special needs of the poor kids or those from dysfunctional families who are not on anything near a level playing field. It ends up costing us more as a society if we do nothing early.

Throwing money at a problem is not the solution. We already spend more money on education that most developed nation, yet we obtain minimal results. Expectations must rise from our students, and they must be taught those things that are required to assist them to deal with real life.

The libertarian side of me agrees that the "war on drugs" is being fought poorly and those "consumers" of addictive drugs need treatment rather than incarceration. HOWEVER, those who deal those drugs are the ones, peddling addiction in order to maintain their "market share", even if it destroys lives, are the ones who need to be taken off the streets. They are targeting the children of our country. They are the enemy of social order, and they destroy the "liberty" of their customers, enslaving them to a addictive drug. So we cannot just do nothing. But we need to be smarter and prioritize our efforts. Personally, I would be for legalizing Marijuana, since it's not nearly as sinister as Meth, Heroin, or Cocaine.

using emergency rooms as doctors offices is stupidly expensive; so is hunger.

So you're ready to deal with the illegal immigration problem? Because the majority of people (at least in my part of the country) who use the ER are illegals who can hardly speak English.

We also have to think smarter about health care. We need a hybrid system of public and private clinics. Also, we need co-pays to correspond to the type of care being sought in order to avoid overuse of the system (tragedy of the commons). I like what I saw in Thailand quite a bit. I could go to the doctor for a reasonable fee and obtain basic services (treating ear infections.. etc) without amassing a huge bill. Their dentistry services are also amazing, both from private and public perspectives.

One of the problems of health insurance and government health care is that when the gov't assumes responsibility for "footing the bill", there is no cost control mechanism on the part of the hospitals and clinics. They same can also be said for higher education. IMO, this is why health care now amounts to nearly 20% of our GDP. No one seems to have an economic incentive to reduce costs.

There are a few who "game" the system not unlike some businesses.

It's more than just a few, IMO. And yep, businesses (like the TBTF) banks are gaming the system as well. We need more accountability and oversight so that the taxpayers get the biggest bang for the buck from the money that is spent.

Labor unions are legal, and are certainly not motivating people not to work.

I have no problem with private labor unions as they serve a purpose is representing the worker in a private corporation. However, I would much prefer that workers be given a bigger stake in a firm (stock.. etc) as that makes management and workers interests coincide. As for public unions, even FDR has problems with that as it created an inherent conflict of interest where unions could lobby representatives to increase their salaries via congressional fiat. Public unions don't negotiate with corporate management. The negotiate with gov't budget, and use their voting block power to intimidate representatives (NEA, Police, Fire unions.. etc).

My view is that public workers, given the better benefits package they receive, should have a salary that better corresponds with the tax base. You can't have public workers making 2-3 times as much as the people they are supposed to serve.

and police and prosecutors are part of an economic enterprise that is the FUBARED apolitical "war on drugs."

We need to take the "profit motive" out of the criminal justice system. States and local law enforcement receive considerable assistance from the Federal Gov't to incarcerate individuals instead of finding more creative and realistic ways to deal with offenders. I'm all for offenders paying some part of their incarceration and restitution, but we must focus on helping those who what to help themselves to stay clean (or at least not endanger the public by driving drunk). Some people, unfortunately, do not want help... and these are the people we must protect ourselves from.

i'm a big believer in following the "spirit of the law", not the letter. People are not machines and their offenses should be judged accordingly. There are predators who seek to exploit and undermine social order by infringing upon the rights of others. But there are also troubled individuals who are dependent upon addictive substances who are screaming for help. Those are the people we have, as you aptly state, an obligation to help, so that they can help themselves.

Hawk

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To: joseffy who wrote (87945)5/4/2012 10:49:55 AM
From: Hawkmoon1 Recommendation   of 89452
 
Yep..and for the life of me, I don't know where it all went..

We doubled that national debt so that the TBTF banks had a "borrower of last resort", paid for through taxpayer dollars. They don't want to lend to the private sector (or the demand for borrowing is diminished), so they lend to the "safest" borrower out there.. the US Treasury.

But I don't see where the gov't has spent that money wisely. There MUST be an ROI factored into gov't spending, even if it's negative in the short term. I don't see an ROI from giving able bodied individuals money to sit at home. I do see one from requiring them to perform community service, even if it merely involves picking up garbage, or filling potholes.

The manner in which "liquidity" was injected into the system was based upon the private banks resuming lending and that's just not happening. Better to get people working (if only to prevent them from resorting to criminal activity to survive) and obtain some needed service or good in exchange.

Hawk

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