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To: IN_GOD_I_TRUST who wrote (677)12/4/2001 5:43:24 AM
From: DukeCrow   of 2923
 
Good question. There's no easy answer, IMO, and I don't think I'm wise enough to suggest one. The problem is that we have to make sure we know who it is we're targetting and what is the most effective way to do it without having it spiral into a neverending cycle of violence. Not an easy task to say the least.

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To: IN_GOD_I_TRUST who wrote (675)12/4/2001 5:49:02 AM
From: DukeCrow   of 2923
 
<< If the radical Muslim is warping the Quran and taking it out of context, (other than just condemning them for the violence), shouldn't the conservative/moderate Muslim also condemn them for the desecrating God's word so terribly? >>

Yes, I believe they should. Islamic leaders in Iran and Saudi Arabia previously condemned the Taliban for their improper implementation of Islamic Law. I've seen a few condemnations of Osama Bin Laden's interpretation of the Quran. However, these types of things rarely find their way into mass media, and I doubt many people actually pay attention to it for whatever reason (the moderates already know and the radicals don't care to know).

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To: uu who wrote (669)12/4/2001 5:50:24 AM
From: DukeCrow   of 2923
 
<< If you disagree with this I will be more than happy to express my reasonings, and I will be more than happy to be proven that I am wrong. >>

Please do.

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To: uu who wrote (692)12/4/2001 3:25:23 PM
From: gda   of 2923
 
Addi,

I am puzzled by what you are doing on this thread. You seem to be trying to prove how stupid Islam is or something. No wonder Amein kicked you out from his thread.
I am sorry I even brought Hadith into this discussion in the first place. We can all use google and find Hadith links on our own, we certainly do not need you to quote the whole selection here. If you are trying to make a point, be specific and ask a question, but please do not produce the juicy parts and sit there gloating.

well, enough rebuke for one post. The purpose I brought the Hadith qudsi #6 quote (message 672) was for an important reason. The way I understand what it says is that Martyrdom is not going to be rewarded. HKL transcribed it nicely (I like your style hkl). If my understanding is correct, these suicide bombers have a problem don't they?

Can you help with this Duke?

Thanks for your comments on this subject.

GDA

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To: gda who wrote (702)12/4/2001 4:27:07 PM
From: uu   of 2923
 
gda:

The reason I brought up some of the juicy parts of Hadith is simply to imply that what you have taken from Hadith on Martydrom is coming from the same source that contains all those other juicy parts. If you can put your faith and belief in all those other sections of Hadith, then I guess the part on Martydrom can also be taken seriously!

As why I am getting into Hadith, is to really understand the mind set of an Islamic follower. Again consider the response that for example Amein provided to the following:

"The witness of a woman is equal to half of that of a man because of the deficiency of the woman's mind" Hadith vol. 3:826

And I quote the explanations he provided (http://www.siliconinvestor.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=16441409)

"here is the reasoning behind having to have 2 women instead of one man...
the verses in Quran add that "so that if one of them (of the women that is) forgets, the other shall remind her" ... and guess what, modern day medical research has shown that women are more prone to being forgetful than men... I am sorry that I don't have the article that was published by a renowned researcher... a woman nevertheless... but I am sure if one searches for it, he / she will find it..."


Now if you think above is a reasonable logical response, then I guess you can also expect to get similar logical reasonable response to your Martydrom question from an educated moderate Muslim, and that should make you happy.

As for why Amein kicked me out of his thread was because I (unlike others) am straight forward and tell the truth as I see it, and keep on asking till all my questions are answered. I am sick and tired of being politically correct when it comes to the truth! I found his responses to my questions and others to be at best comical and at worst misleading. And if you do not believe me please let me know and I will provide all the links to his responses to the questions such as Quran's verses on wife beating, killing of non-Muslims, etc. You should also know that those responses are from someone (namely Amein) who is educated (I believe he is an IT consultant), considered to be a moderate and a true gentle Muslim, and is living in a free thinking society as in the U.S.

I never showed any disrespect toward Amein, and all my posts to him were all formualted in a very polite, civil and respectful manner. His problem was that he could not handle being challenged intellectually when it came down to Islam, and was in a way afraid that he could no longer defend the flaws that I was pointing out with Islam.

As whether I am trying to prove how stupid Islam is... There are 2 points I will make to that:

a) I do not need to prove anything if Islam is doing a good job of it by itself through Quran and Hadith!

b) Believe it or not - I am totally open minded and really and honestly as my God is my witness, am willing to see the Muslim's sides of the story when it comes to these questionable Quranic verses (on wife beating ,etc.), and Hadith. The problem is every Muslim I come across either mocks me for being anti Islamic for questioning Quran and its verses (for which Muslims blindly accept Quran as the words of God and expect everyone else to do the same), and therefore ignores me totally by avoiding to answer my questions in a reasonable logical respectful manner (as I ask them in the same format), or they simply run away!

c) If you read my introduction post to this thread, I have provided in an unbaised fashion the positive resources, negative links, and the somewhere in between, resources on Islam. Let me stress on the following fact, that as it stands I have really and honestly have no bias toward or against Islam in one way or another. If you find my comments rather negative at this time, it is because I am pointing out what I have discovered and no Muslim (or otherwise) has provided any reasonable response to prove that I am wrong (and believe me I do honestly would love to be proven wrong with my somewhat negative view of Islam).

In short I am doing exactly what this thread is intended to do, and that is to truly and genuinely ”Understand Islam”, by bringing it under microscope, set aside all the political correctness novelties, and get to the bottom of it!

Best Regards,

- Addi

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To: uu who wrote (703)12/4/2001 5:19:46 PM
From: Bill Fischofer   of 2923
 
I see nothing odd about dietary and sanitary codes being found in religious texts and commentaries. In societies without refrigeration or modern sanitation such codes can be viewed as practical solutions to public health. The same sort of codes can be found in the Old Testament and I see nothing wrong with those who for devotional reasons continue to observe them.

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To: Bill Fischofer who wrote (704)12/4/2001 7:12:41 PM
From: uu   of 2923
 
Hi Bill:

You state:
> In societies without refrigeration or modern sanitation such codes can be viewed as practical solutions to public health. The same sort of codes can be found in the Old Testament and I see nothing wrong with those who for devotional reasons continue to observe them.

Forgive me for which I maybe missing your point here, (or perhaps you are missing my point).

I am not in any form or shape saying that it is not OK for people to follow/observe those sets of codes (as pointed out in Hadith and/or Quran). My point is, I find it rather a bit hypocritical when someone claims that Islam is a religion of God (i.e. a supreme being that is evil free), and is for the rights of women, and views all humans the same regardless of their beliefs, when in Hadith Mohammad (and yes he is dead so peace be upon him) is quoted as saying:

Volume 3, Book 34, Number 363:

Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid:

Allah's Apostle was asked about the slave-girl, if she was a virgin and committed illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet said, "If she committed illegal sexual intercourse, lash her, and if she did it a second time, then lash her again, and if she repeated the third time, then sell her even for a hair rope." Ibn Shihab said, "I don't know whether to sell her after the third or fourth offense."

or

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 382:

Narrated Jabir:

Allah's Apostle said to me, "Have you got married O Jabir?" I replied, "Yes." He asked "What, a virgin or a matron?" I replied, "Not a virgin but a matron." He said, "Why did you not marry a young girl who would have fondled with you?"

or

Book 31, Number 31.4.4:

Malik said, "The generally agreed upon way of doing things among us is that if a man returns a slave girl in whom he has found a defect and he has already had intercourse with her, he must pay what he has reduced of her price if she was a virgin. If she was not a virgin, there is nothing against his having had intercourse with her because he had charge of her."

And there are plenty more that (to me anyway) represent anything but a man sent by an evil-free God creating a religion that is claimed to be about peace and love, and the rights of women - and in fact the rights of all human beings! If you go to the following site (sponsored by The Muslim Students Association at USC composed of many reputable Islamic scholars and students) and read the translation of Hadith (and do a search for - for example – on the word "intercourse")
usc.edu  , you will be amazed the types of things you find in the book that is one of the basis for Islamic teachings!

Or when you read about verses in Quran that talk about beating your wife if you feel she is not obeying you, then you wonder exactly what type of God is Islam promoting? To me, this God is not so much evil-free, but something that is made by men purely for their self-serving purposes (a little over 1400) years ago!

Furthermore, that is still fine, as it is every man, and woman's right to believe and to follow whatever faith, religion or cult they want. The problems come to exist when those who are following such codes try to export them to outside of their own environment and society (as has been the case with Iran, and the Taliban as they find their duty to export and to enforce such codes to the entire world)! For example Khomeini's ultimate goal was/(is) to have an Islamic United States of America and he and his psychotic followers were willing to do anything - and I mean anything - to achieve that!

As for your reference to the Old Testament, you do not see people blowing themselves up killing thousands of innocent people in the name of Old Testament these days, do you?

Regards,

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To: Bag of Pucks who wrote (698)12/4/2001 7:22:56 PM
From: IN_GOD_I_TRUST   of 2923
 
hkl,

"However, when one person's belief threatens another, I have issue with that. "

Me too.....

God Bless,
IGIT

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To: DukeCrow who wrote (700)12/4/2001 7:28:21 PM
From: IN_GOD_I_TRUST   of 2923
 
DukeCrow,

It can not be isolated condemnation, never making the media. It needs to be widespead, strong action to stop the desecration and violence. And it needs to be all of conservative and moderate Islam.

Otherwise, it seems that they are not really in to condemning the radicals at all.... That's not good!

God Bless,
IGIT

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To: uu who wrote (646)12/4/2001 7:30:54 PM
From: DukeCrow   of 2923
 
(I am using Muhammad Asad's translation of the Qur'an, as I feel it is one of the most thorough, complete, and concise English explanations of the Qur'an I have read.)

<< Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. >>

I'd like to take a few phrases from above and try to explain them more fully, first.

<< Men are in charge of women >>

The Arabic expression used here is qawwam which is an intensive, more comprehensive form of qa'im (meaning one who is responsible for or takes care of) and which combines the concepts of physical maintenance and protection as well as of moral responsibility. Therefore, perhaps a more complete translation would read "Men shall take full care of women" not "Men are in charge of women."

<< So good women are the obedient >>

This may leave one to wonder to whom good women are obedient. The answer is "to God."


<< As for those from whom ye fear rebellion >>

The problem here is that rebellion is the literal translation but does not give a good sense of the severity of the "rebellion." The Arabic term nushuz comprises every kind of deliberate bad behavior towards another, including mental or physical cruelty (depending on whether the rebellion is referring to the wife or the husband). In this context, a wife's nushuz implies a deliberate, persistent breach of her marital obligations.

<< admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. >>

The "and"s imply that all these things should be done. Rather, it is a progression: "admonish them first; then leave them alone in bed; then beat them."

This is Muhammad Asad's translation of the same verse.

Men shall take full care of women with the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on the former than on the latter, and with what they may spend out of their possessions. And the righteous women are the truly devout ones, who guard the intimacy which God has [ordained to be] guarded.

As for those women whose ill-will you have reason to fear, admonish them [first]; then leave them alone in bed; then beat them; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek to harm them. Behold, God is indeed most high, great!

It is important to understand that Muslims are supposed to look for guidance in two sources: the Quran and the authentic teachings/traditions of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). If someone needs further clarification on something in the Quran, they should look to the Prophet's teachings for guidance -- for instance, if someone is confused as to how to interpret the word "beat" in the above verse (i.e., is it a harsh beating or a light or symbolic one, or how often should one resort to this). It is well known from many authentic traditions that the Prophet intensely detested the idea of beating one's wife and, according to another tradition, he forbade the beating of any woman. When the above Quranic verse authorizing the beating of a refractory wife was revealed, the Prophet is reported to have said, "I wanted one thing, but God has willed another thing -- and what God has willed must be best." However, in his Farewell Sermon shortly before his death, the Prophet stipulated that beating should only be resorted to if the wife "has become guilty, in an obvious manner, of immoral conduct," and that it should be done "in such a way as not to cause pain." On the basis of these and other authentic traditions, all authorities stress that this "beating," if resorted to at all, should be more or less symbolic -- "with a toothbrush, or some such thing," or even "with a folded handkerchief." Some of the greatest Muslim scholars (e.g., Ash-Shafi'i) are of the opinion that it is just barely permissible and should preferably be avoided since the Prophet's personal feelings about this were so strong.

Now, some might try to say that I'm dodging the question by going to an outside source (the Prophet's teachings) to more fully explain the above verse on beating ones wife. However, there is nothing further from the truth. The Prophet's teachings are extremely important in guiding a Muslim as to how one should live their life. And, in this case, it helps to set the degree and circumstances of something which otherwise could be misinterpreted.

Also, one should not assume that this is the only passage detailing the relationship between a husband and wife. There are verses granting wives full inheritance rights, verses granting wives the right to divorce their husbands and the resulting right of obtaining child support from their husband, verses stressing the mutual obligations of men and women towards one another as a result of marriage, and many, many others.

To address some of the specific questions:

<< a) Based on the translation (which is done by the very source you have provided) and what Webster has defined scourfe is rather meant to imply "Harsh" beating punishment. >>

It's kind of imprecise to go to the dictionary to look up an English word someone chose to use to translate an Arabic word. It may not be practical for you since you probably don't have an Arabic dictionary, but it's preferable to look up the Arabic word to get a more complete explanation, especially since context (both literary and historical) are so important in trying to get a proper English translation of an Arabic word or phrase.

<< b) Why Quran does not provide the same right to women to inflict punishment on their husband? It seems Quran only addresses men, and not the women, and views them as objects to be controlled by the men. >>

Again, if you read the Quran in its entirety I feel you'll get a sense that the Quran very much empowers women and does not "view them as being controlled by the men." There are many verses which address women.

I think I have addressed the "punishment" aspect of the verse. The Quran gives women recompense through the right to divorce their husbands for any reason whatsoever.

Also, throughout the Quran the equality of men and women is addressed. As a simple example, the Quran blames both Adam and Eve equally for their transgression (everyone is responsible for their own sins; you cannot blame another for a sin which you have willfully committed), while the Bible places the blame on Eve.

Please do not think that these explanations are perfect or complete. I would never claim such a thing. One of the fundamental principles of the Qur'an is that all of its statements and ordinances are mutually complementary and cannot, therefore, be correctly understood unless they are considered as parts of one integral whole.

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