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To: David R who wrote (142)10/9/2001 6:44:50 PM
From: James Calladine   of 2923
 
"let us now respectfully agree to disagree"

Good suggestion!

Namaste!

Jim

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To: uu who started this subject10/11/2001 4:46:23 AM
From: AmericanVoter   of 2923
 
Addi, as promised, I read the post in the link you provided… and it never ceases to amaze me how someone can take a verse of the Holy Quran out of context…

Allow me to start with an example…
there is a verse in the Holy Quran that starts as follows “oh you who believe, do not pray while you are drunk until you know what you are saying" (5:43)
if one takes the first part only, one might claim that the Holy Quran asked believers not to pray…

The post in that link is an example of doing just that. I, nevertheless, will respond to what is in it.


About the issue of Women’s Rights

The reference made in the translation of the referenced verse (2:228) that men have a degree over women is taken out of context…
it is in reference to divorce… the referenced verse in Holy Quran (2:228) starts with, “and the divorced women” to the end of the verse… mainly, that men and women have duties and responsibilities to each other in the case of divorce, and they (the men) have a degree over them (the women)… and that is because it is their (the men) sole responsibility to care and provide for them (the women).

Now, about the referenced verse (2:282)… first, this is not court witness as the provided translation claims… the verse begins by addressing people lending each other (presumably money) advising them to document the transaction and have it witnessed… then it specifies what kind of witness… two men, or a man and two women… then it adds, that for fear that one woman may forget, so that the other woman would remind her… and I addressed the issue of forgetfulness in a previous post …


As for inheritance in the referenced verse (4:11)… the concept here is that the male member will be the main provider for any female dependents in the case of death… and the verse goes into detail in different scenarios of inheritance… and you know what, that applies only in the absence of a will…

About the husband punishing his wife… I addressed that in many previous posts


About women veiling themselves… the verse referenced (33:59) begins by addressing the Prophet pbuh… so, some may say that the veiling is only for the Prophet’s wives and some may say that Muslims should follow the example of the Prophet pbuh… in either case, why would it bother anyone that a Muslim woman wears a veil if she chooses to is beyond me…

I will try to address the other issues later.

regards
amein

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To: uu who started this subject10/11/2001 10:06:15 AM
From: AmericanVoter   of 2923
 
Addi, as promised, continuing my response to the posting in the link you provided…

this time, the issue is Sex & Marriage
The referenced verse (4:3) begins by addressing the issue of orphans… “And if you feared that you will not be just to the orphans”… to the part where it says, that one may marry two, three or four wives… so again, the translation is taking it out of context… and I addressed the issue before on the conditions and wisdom of the Quran of allowing the man to marry more than one wife...

The referenced verse (2:223) begins addressing men that their wives are your partners to have children…. I am not going to use the word used in the translation in the posting because I don't know its meaning and am not going to make an assumption… which you say means a field to be ploughed… well, I wonder, if one is to plough a field, doesn’t that mean that he / she is trying to plant something to gain it’s fruits…! Then the posting goes on to suggesting that unnatural sex is allowed… if we keep in mind that the purpose is to have children (a field to be ploughed like the posting says, to plant and gain the fruits) then how can unnatural sex be allowed ? ... and again, I addressed this in previous postings...

remember this ... "in the animal kingdom, where fools reign and stupidity runs very high; common sense, which is not common to the common people, is always essential." ... so, apply some common sense Addi.

Now, about divorce… yes divorce is allowed in Islam… also, a woman can divorce her husband as well for infidelity, impotence, abuse… it's not only the man who can divorce the woman. Furthermore, a woman can reserve the right of unconditional divorce (if she so desires and the man agrees) and documents it in the marriage papers…. Having said all this, there is a saying attributed to the Prophet pbuh that divorce is the most hated of allowable in the eyes of God.

Now why would divorce in Islam bother anyone is beyond me…. it should be viewed as a last resort

Now to verse (2:230)… this should be viewed that divorce is a serious matter one has to consider extremely carefully before doing … and that if one is so reckless as to do it three times, he may not be able to remarry his ex-wife and he has to consider all that before a third divorce…. And that divorce should not be used as a threatening toy…

So, this is a word of caution to the person divorcing… again, why does that bother someone in Islam is beyond me…

again, I will try to continue my response later
regards
amein

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To: AmericanVoter who wrote (144)10/11/2001 10:57:21 AM
From: uu   of 2923
 
Hi Amein:

Thank you for your note. I also just wanted to let you know that I have sent an email to SI asking them to please change the title of this thread to Understanding Islam.

Now to the points you have made in your post.

You state:
> there is a verse in the Holy Quran that starts as follows “oh you who believe, do not pray while you are drunk until you know what you are saying" (5:43)

Yes I am familiar with that Surrah. But I think one should look at Surrahs 4.43, and 5.6 to understand the entire context. So let me put the entire Surrah here, it says:

Sura 4.43, see also sura 5.6:

Draw not near unto prayer when ye are dranken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying on the road, till ye have bathed. And if you be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched a woman, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands.

In general Islam treats women as intellectually, morally, and physically inferior. First comes man, then come then hermaphrodite (who in Islam has a ldistinct legal status), and last the woman. Hadiths says:

- better for a man to be splashed by a pig than for him to brush against the elbow of a woman not permitted him.
- 3 things can interrupt prayers if they pass in from of someone praying, a black dog, a woman and an ass!

Amein, with all due respect I am convinced beyond anything that Islam treats women horribly (based on 21st century civilized basic human rights, and mutual respect requirements). And honestly I think as an educated man - deep down - you know I am right.

Show me one single Islamic country on earth that treats women equally and with the same respect as men. Who me one single Islamic country that respects the basic 21st century human rights to pursue happiness in life, and freedom of choice when it comes to Women. And by an Islamic country I mean one that claims to follow Quran and Islam.

There is a book called Why I am not a Muslim written by Ibn Warraq (you can buy it from Amazon.com for about $25 including tax). Despite the name of the book implying otherwise, the book is genuinely a realistic, 100% objective look at Islam, and its teachings. If you decide to buy the book (and I am pretty much sure you will not) read the chapter on Islam and Women. It is a comprehensive detail study of Quran, and Hadith. It covers every single Quran's surra on the subject of Women and their treatment without any surra taken out of context (as you have suggested in your post).

Message 16469499

Regards,

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To: AmericanVoter who wrote (145)10/11/2001 11:12:30 AM
From: uu   of 2923
 
Amein,

I guess it all boils down how you want to interpret something.

I really wished every single Muslim in the world would interpret Quran as you do. I really mean this. But the facts of real life speak otherwise. And all you have to do is to look at any Islamic society on this planet with the exception of those in the United States for which the civil laws have sanitized the interpretation of Quran by its followers (and here I am talking mostly about Muhammad Alis of the world).

You are a good gentleman, with good intentions nevertheless.

In any event, I do not believe (I for one) can be convinced that Islam treats women anything less than "horrible". - and believe me I have kept a total open mind about this - But I am just looking at the realities of life and what is happeniing to Women in every single Islamic country in the world (that are implementing Quran's teachings and laws). Since you do not wish to acknowledge that there are problems with how Women are treated in Islam (based on 21st century civilized basic standards of living, human right, and freedom of choice), then and therefore lets move on to the non-women areas (particularly those having to do with the violence and treatment of non-muslims as I pointed out in my link).

Regards,

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To: AmericanVoter who wrote (145)10/11/2001 6:58:34 PM
From: uu   of 2923
 
Amein:

On Islam's treatment of Muslims and non-Muslims - I just wanted to say that while it is true that the Koran contains verses that are antagonistic to Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims it also has verses that are positive and favorable to Christians and Jews (although not neccessarily to any other non-Muslims!). Hence it is important to know and I do understand that the Koran cannot be interpreted without the knowledge of the wider body of legal and theological Islamic literature. Koran's surrahs do not stand on their own without context, and the context maybe much more sophisticated than the literal meaning of the surrah.

Therefore I think it is crucials for Muslims to realize that the phenomenon of psychopaths (such as bin Laden, and the Talibans, Khomeini groupies, etc.)who take Quran's literal meaning of its Surrahs and verses at face value wihtout putting it in the larger context of legal, and theological Islamic literature (in addition to basic common sense), is very dangerous to Islam (and for the sake of the argument lets forget the West for now).

I really believe that unless Muslims themselves ostracize these psychopaths and their pernicious interpretation of the Koran and of the prophet Mohammad's sayings, the Muslim world, as well as the rest of the world, will suffer a tremendous amount of physical, and emotional abuse. In effect they will literally bring hell to the earth! But then again maybe that is what they want to do since these psychopaths (the likes of Bin Laden groupies, Taliban groupies, Khomeini groupies, etc.) are nothing but bastards from Hell, and they are just too home-sick, and just miss their home too much here on earth.

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To: 2MAR$ who wrote (117)10/12/2001 6:54:54 PM
From: marcos   of 2923
 
Any man-made construct will tend to be influenced by the man-made constructs to which its constructors were previously exposed, this would seem logical, at least following our invention of language ... for instance, it has been said that the name of our holiday Easter comes from the name of the babylonian goddess Astarte, and the festival serving a similar purpose, that of celebrating new growth in spring

Disclosure - i have read only half a dozen posts here, in my current condition of feeling my agnostic roots being pulled in the direction of a conversion to onionism - theonion.com  .... further i believe that we should all - and this includes agnostics and onionistas alike - grab a clue and consider the future of the species ... cheers to all of good will

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To: David R who wrote (142)10/13/2001 2:02:57 AM
From: Greg or e   of 2923
 
Excellent post David.

Greg

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To: marcos who wrote (149)10/13/2001 1:49:32 PM
From: chuckj   of 2923
 
Must we therefore use man made constructs or philosophy/numerology to predict the future terrorists attacks?

Here is an article that puts the two opposing forces, freemason and assassin, builder and destroyer, good and evil, in perspective. It uses the historical pattern of each faith in order to predict the other's move.

It even predicts the next attack date based on the known numerology as 11/17 noon local time where ever it should happen.

It is a very interesting article and needs to be in its entirety:

enterprisemission.com 

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To: uu who wrote (148)10/17/2001 7:23:50 PM
From: IN_GOD_I_TRUST   of 2923
 
Here are some verses I pulled up from the Islamic holy books. Ponder their meanings. (I did not read the whole thread, so I apologize in advance if you discussed some of these already!

Straight from the Quran:

al-Ma'idah 5:33
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;

al-Ma'idah 5:38.9
As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

004.034
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

at-Taubah 9:5.8
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

004.076
YUSUFALI: Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.

002.191
PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

002.193
PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

008.065
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.

From the Hadith (is a record of the words and deeds of Muhammad, is also viewed by Muslims as inspired. Next to the Quran, it is the most important source of Islamic Law. It's teachings are regarded as binding on all Muslims.):

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35:
The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr).

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234:
Narrated Abu Qilaba:

Anas said, "Some people of 'Ukl or 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them." Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle ."

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 796:
Narrated Anas:

A group of people from 'Ukl (tribe) came to the Prophet and they were living with the people of As-Suffa, but they became ill as the climate of Medina did not suit them, so they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with milk." The Prophet said, I see no other way for you than to use the camels of Allah's Apostle." So they went and drank the milk and urine of the camels, (as medicine) and became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and took the camels away. When a help-seeker came to Allah's Apostle, he sent some men in their pursuit, and they were captured and brought before mid day. The Prophet ordered for some iron pieces to be made red hot, and their eyes were branded with them and their hands and feet were cut off and were not cauterized. Then they were put at a place called Al-Harra, and when they asked for water to drink they were not given till they died. (Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder and fought against Allah and His Apostle.")

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 50:
Narrated Abu Juhaifa:

I asked 'Ali "Do you have anything Divine literature besides what is in the Qur'an?" Or, as Uyaina once said, "Apart from what the people have?" 'Ali said, "By Him Who made the grain split (germinate) and created the soul, we have nothing except what is in the Quran and the ability (gift) of understanding Allah's Book which He may endow a man, with and what is written in this sheet of paper." I asked, "What is on this paper?" He replied, "The legal regulations of Diya (Blood-money) and the (ransom for) releasing of the captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for killing a Kafir (disbeliever)."

God Bless,
IGIT

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