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To: Ilaine who wrote (96433)4/26/2003 2:36:23 PM
From: John Carragher   of 280800
 
United Nations should be peace keepers... Not our boys... Let's get greater support from around the world to provide the peace that the United Nations talks about.

Let's cut down the number of military bases, duplicates of functions no longer necessary, pull out of germany, south korea, Japan, etc. spend the money on smart bombs , new faster weapons.. combine forces into the idea of special forces and eliminate the four staffs who all fight over which plane etc the army, air force navy will get.

Use the United Nations for food supply , peace keepers etc.

ps and pay our military a larger salary ,, these people are real professionals.

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To: John Carragher who wrote (96444)4/26/2003 2:50:36 PM
From: HH   of 280800
 
"United Nations should be peace keepers..."

that pre-supposes that the UN is competent.

highly questionable.

HH

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To: unclewest who wrote (96441)4/26/2003 2:53:16 PM
From: Sun Tzu   of 280800
 
No I am not kidding. I know what I saw in B&W films from the era. Your link says nothing about what those public instructions were. I've tried to find something I can link, but have not been able to...and I am afraid I can't link previous TV shows. If I find it, I will post a link.

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To: HH who wrote (96445)4/26/2003 3:05:04 PM
From: John Carragher   of 280800
 
It can be various countries within the UN that are very good at peace keeping..

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To: unclewest who wrote (96441)4/26/2003 3:14:13 PM
From: BigBull   of 280800
 
Another article on the "secret war" that toppled Saddam. The article tends to vindicate Rumsfeld's approach towards re-shaping the US military and includes some material not contained in previously posted articles. Sounds like Special Forces people definitely earned their pay and are well deserving of the 20% hike in the new budget. The taking of the dams that could have flooded the Karbala gap still amazes me.

Secret war that undermined Saddam
ALEX MASSIE IN WASHINGTON
news.scotsman.com 

AS THEY roared north to Baghdad, US forces knew that they had a powerful secret weapon on their side - finely-honed insults that would make Iraqi troops’ blood boil.

Through enormous loudspeakers mounted on their humvees, troops broadcast messages proclaiming that Iraqi men were impotent.

The insult had been carefully chosen to so enrage Iraqi troops that they could not resist rushing from their defensive positions to attack the American troops in open battle, with terrible consequences.

According to Newsweek, US Central Command was delighted that the carefully constructed plan "to mess with their heads" seemed to be working so well. The strategy is one of many aspects of a war that went almost un-noted - the hidden psychological and special forces operations that helped win the war.

Another operation was born out of CENTCOM’s increasing concern that Saddam might adopt a "flooded earth" policy in a desperate last act of defiance, to stop the armoured advance in its tracks.

The generals in charge of executing Operation Iraqi Freedom knew what would happen if Saddam blew up a series of dams to flood the Mesopo-tamian plain between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.

Covert special forces operations inside Iraq had measured the water levels in Iraq’s reservoirs to determine how much water would be unleashed. The results were disconcerting. Special forces were ordered back to secure the dams around Karbala south of Baghdad, where the bottleneck could most easily be created.

Controlling the dams was just one aspect of the covert role played by special forces troops.

While the US army and Marine Corps’ advance on Baghdad captured the headlines, much of the real work behind the invasion already had been done in secret behind enemy lines before a single tank had crossed from Kuwait into Iraq. Special forces teams, many composed either of American Arabs or Hispanics disguised to look like Arabs, moved into Iraq in the weeks and months before the invasion.

As in Afghanistan, US agents and covert operations troops used cash bribes to achieve their objectives. Greasing Iraqi palms helped persuade some oil field managers not to torch the wells. In the event, nine wells were set on fire and it was information from troops already inside Iraq, reported Newsweek, that persuaded General Tommy Franks to launch the ground war 36 hours ahead of schedule.

Intelligence sources on the ground reported that Saddam had ordered the oil fields to be set on fire.

However, Saddam was unable to enforce such an order, in part because US surveillance reduced the Iraqi army’s ability to communicate to such an extent that the enemy was reduced to relying on bicycle messengers to carry orders across the battlefield. There was no way in which the Iraqis could compete with allied signal intelligence that, for the first time in the history of warfare allowed for near-instant battlefield communication.

Covert operations could not alone win the battle, but they prepared the ground for the rapid advance on Baghdad.

They were charged with securing three air strips in the western Iraqi desert ensuring that Saddam would not be in a position to threaten Israel. In the north they liaised with Kurdish peshmerga troops so effectively that, combined with the rapid advance from the south, Gen Franks didn’t need the northern front that had been envisaged in the original war plans.

Inside the capital itself, CIA and small groups of secret military troops scouted targets, acting as pathfinders to the circling bombers overhead. When Saddam appeared to be filmed strolling the streets of his capital in an act of bravado, CIA agents were quick to identify the streets as being part of the Mansour residential district. The area was quickly flooded with agents, searching for fresh information on Saddam’s possible location.

Sure enough, that brought information suggesting that Saddam was holed up in a private house in the city. Within an hour that house had been flattened by a brace of 2,000lb bunker busting bombs. This was joined-up warfare for the 21st century.

General Richard Myers summed up the Pentagon’s new doctrine of war pithily: "Speed kills the enemy" he said.

The invasion of Iraq could not have been contemplated, planned or executed without the leading role of US, British and Australian special forces. According to Michael Vickers, a defence expert at the Centre for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments: "This really has been a Special Operations war. It’s rather astounding."

Drawing on lessons learned from the war in Afghanistan, in which US special forces played a key role in co-ordinating US air strikes, mapping targets and rallying Afghan allies, the war in Iraq has seen special forces move centre stage in US military thinking.

The 10,000 "trigger-pulling" members of US special forces - just 1 per cent of the military’s manpower - punched enormous holes in Saddam’s ability to defend his country, playing a disproportionate role in the swift and decisive victory.

"Rather than using our [technological] advantages to be cautious, to be safe, we used our advantages to be quick and to be decisive," said Tom Donnelly, a military analyst at the American Enterprise Institute.

"The idea that we could rapidly take down a country the size of California with the equivalent of three ground combat divisions and 900 aircraft is audacity to the point of foolishness, if you go by anything like traditional military planning benchmarks."

But the enduring legacy of Operation Iraqi Freedom may be that those traditional benchmarks for military success are out of date. If so, then military planners at staff colleges around the world will look at the key role special forces troops played in the liberation of Iraq.

More than any other part of the military plan, the use of special forces was Mr Rumsfeld’s pet project, say Pentagon officials. The US defence secretary repeatedly urged Gen Franks to make greater use of their capability, trusting America’s elite forces with preparing the ground for the invasion.

Mr Rumsfeld had been impressed by special forces’ adaptability in Afghanistan when, for instance, they used 21st century laser-targeting equipment to direct precision missiles from 20th century aircraft such as the 50-year-old B-52 bombers while depending on 19th century transport on horseback.

At last, Mr Rumsfeld felt, here was an under-used asset that demonstrated the speed and flexibility needed to wage war in an age of military "transformation".

The success of the military plan has emboldened Mr Rumsfeld to proceed apace with his plans to transform the US military - special forces command received a 20 per cent increase in its 2004 budget, bringing expenditure on America’s most elite troops to $6 billion.

Special forces are the new poster boys of the US military machine. They have become the US military’s fifth service.

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To: BigBull who wrote (96429)4/26/2003 3:20:07 PM
From: Sun Tzu   of 280800
 
Come on BigBull, how is this an answer to what I said. I read the article and it is mostly bogus. It sets the stage with this:

The edict, or fatwa, issued on April 8 by , an Iraqi-born cleric based in the Iranian holy city of Qum, suggests that Shiite clerics in Iraq are receiving significant direction from Iran


This is an absolute load of crock! Here you have an Iraqi giving orders to other Iraqis and just because it so happens he found refuge among Saddam's enemies across the border, the author is jumping to the conclusion that Iran is pulling his strings.

Let's look at this for what it is: Iran is host to almost all anti-Saddam forces, including the Kurds. The current Kurdish leadership which US is so friendly with got a fair amount of help from Iran. The flag of Kurdistan which they held is almost identical to the traditional flag of Iran. Why is it that the Kurds are not accused of being Iranian stooges?

Did you know that Khoi, the same person that Ledeen praised as the greatest threat to the mullahs was also Iranian? And did you know that he too has an office in Qum just like Sadr? So why is it that nobody complained here is an Iranian with an office and organization in Iran who is coming to power? And how come nobody said here you have an Iranian cleric with offices in Iran and he is helping us out therefore Iran is a good guy now? The door swings both ways.

And did you know that Sistani, the same Ayatollah whom we are supporting was born and raised in Iran? Why isn't he being accused of anything?

Try to see this for what it is: Iran helped anyone who was against Saddam, including PUK and KDP (Talibani and Barizani Kurdish groups). What is more most of Shia leadership everywhere in the world are of Iranian decent. So you can weave whatever connection you want, but that does not make them any more "real".

Try to put yourself in shoes of a political anti-Saddam fighter. How would you do it? You would find a base as close to Saddam that you could find safety in, i.e. Iran. Who would you get help from? Just about anyone who'd be willing to help you, but that could only be Saddam's enemies and in this case only Iran (there is no way Saudis would help a Shia, and Kuwaities are not into this kind of thing). What would you do when Saddam was gone? You would come back and try to seize power because that is what political leaders want. None of these makes these people puppets of Iran. Find me a logical reason why any of them would want to be puppet of Iran. There are political considerations and self-interest reasons that would bring some groups closer to Iran than others. But that is still motivated by self interest and not because they are puppets of Iran...and Sadr is on the more outer rings of such alliances. Sadr would only be appealing to Iran in contrast to a pro-American regime. But he would not be even the first, second, or third choice. I'd wager that Iran will even prefer a neutral regime over one headed by Sadr.

Like I said, articles like this and Ledeen's, are full of it.

Sun Tzu

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To: LLLefty who wrote (96422)4/26/2003 3:50:36 PM
From: Nadine Carroll   of 280800
 
If you want to see a real medical crisis, he said, turn to the Congo or West Africa.


Can't implicate the US or Israel there. Sorry, not interesting.

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To: The Pre Beakerite who wrote (96421)4/26/2003 3:52:05 PM
From: XBrit   of 280800
 
<<A few centimeters>>

Yup. I assume people see my point.

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To: John Carragher who wrote (96444)4/26/2003 3:57:19 PM
From: Ilaine   of 280800
 
>>United Nations should be peace keepers<<

You're missing my point. The US already is engaged in peace keeping and humanitarian missions, but these functions are treated as stepchildren by their respective agencies.

We have a fantastic military that isn't trained to maintain law and order, that just stood by while looting occurred, that stores confiscated weapons caches near residential neighborhoods. The Brits are doing a much better job in Basrah.

Somehow the Administration forgot to ask for money for Afghanistan.

USAID hasn't paved one mile of road in Afghanistan.

Who's minding the store?

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To: Sun Tzu who wrote (96425)4/26/2003 4:00:10 PM
From: Jacob Snyder   of 280800
 
<At least as far back as Plato, some people have believed that pure reasoning is superior to other discovery methods>

But Plato was not a scientist, and certainly not Enlightenmnet, which was a 18th-Century meme. Science begins with gathering a mass of observations about the grubby confusing reality around us. Plato never did that, none of the old Greeks did, nobody much did until the Enlightenment. Pure Reason leads to elegant self-consistent thought systems that have nil correlation with reality. Plato and Aristotle, using pure logic, came to some really weird conclusions about the world, conclusions that are disproved easily with a little bit of data-gathering.

<The problem with believing creationism is that it boils down to "I believe in Bible because Christ said so, and I believe in Christ because Bible says so".>

No, that isn't why you don't believe in creationism. It is internally self-consistent, as you say. If you accepted their assumptions, you'd accept all of it, and not worry about fossils or Koalas. Those are just "talking points", that you thought up later. Creationism is part of a larger meme, a wholistic worldview, and you don't find that worldview satisfying. Having made that decision, you look for the weak points of that worldview, to focus you criticism on, and find Creationism. It's about memes, the Darwinian competition among ideas. It isn't about logic at all.

<If 10 years from now I look back and see the neocon solution worked, I will be making major changes to my beliefs.>

It won't take 10 years, to say whether we are bringing freedom and democracy to Iraq. Look at the relevant examples of the recent past. As soon as we re-instated the Emir of Kuwait, you could conclude that, no matter how long you waited, the result was not going to be freedom or democracy. As soon as the warlord armies re-assembled in Afghanistan, in the weeks after Kandahar fell, you could conclude that democracy or freedom (or stability or prosperity) had been pruned from the range of possible futures.

<The Gaians>

Many new ideas came out of the 1960s, and most of them have been abandoned. That's what happens in a period of radiative evolution of memes. Peace, for instance, seems to have failed, all the lessons we learned in Vietnam have been unlearned. But two BigIdeas that began there, have thrived: feminism and environmentalism. Gaia, the worship of Mother Earth, welds those two ideas together. Few people find Secular Humanism to be a satisfying replacement for Christianity. As the fundamentalists (Islamic and Christian) point out, communities of Seculars don't have much community. So, I see Secularism failing, it just doesn't answer the need. The choices are: a return to fundamentalism, or SomethingNew, which could be Gaia, or Buddha, or a return to the polytheism that was the norm before two militant monotheisms conquered the planet.

I feel lucky, to be living in what is probably the most interesting time in human history ever. And to have the freedom and time, to take advantage of so many of the unique opportunities. Like talking to you.

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