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To: Noel de Leon who wrote (67729)1/22/2003 2:15:38 PM
From: michael97123
   of 281382
Inspectors are there to verify iraqi destruction of wmd, not to find them. I believe for the most part saddam has them squirreled away where even the most sophisticated spying techniques wont work without some type of road map. Even after the war is won and saddam is disarmed some of this stuff wont be found for decades.
Its not like the Cuban missile crisis where they sit above ground in large containers. A vial of anthrax is just that, a vial. Some may even be out of the country. I said this before sharon did by the way.
I guess if they are so well squirrelled away, perpetual inspection would indeed work. Think that should be funded by Europe though. What happens in the summer when he kicks them out? Do we expect the US to mobilize every winter for eternity? mike

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To: Noel de Leon who wrote (67651)1/22/2003 2:16:49 PM
From: bela_ghoulashi
   of 281382
Saddam and the Iraqis are supposed to be showing Blix and his team where the WMD's are. That's the real point at issue.

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To: Neeka who wrote (67728)1/22/2003 2:20:29 PM
From: michael97123
   of 281382
"My altruism springs from the belief that if the US fails to defend democracy then my visions and dreams of a bright future for Americans.....including my children......die."


"Until everyone agrees that the fairness of democracy should be the frame work for a beginning, these messes will just keep popping up."

Doesnt even have to be democracy--just a basic respect for human rights. I can live with benign dictatorships and we cannot impose democracy on the world and although the movement is clearly to democracy it comes in different ways. For instance if in 20 years china is a democratic country the fact they are far from perfect now is not a big deal. If it takes 200 years on the other hand.......... mike

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To: bela_ghoulashi who wrote (67733)1/22/2003 2:21:54 PM
From: michael97123
   of 281382
Dont confuse the peacemongers with facts? It will spoil their day if their preconceptions are mussed up. <g> mike

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To: Neocon who wrote (67707)1/22/2003 2:25:49 PM
From: Nadine Carroll
   of 281382
Excellent piece, thanks for posting it.

It is easy, if painful, to see how the United Nations slid back into the fool's game of trying to find a smoking gun inside a totalitarian country such as Iraq. What is much harder to understand is why the Bush administration, which so clearly seemed to have understood that this was not a game that they wanted to play or could win, let itself be trapped like this. But trapped it is.

Historians will puzzle over it. I think the answer lies in two names: Colin Powell and Tony Blair. I hope that Bush can extricate himself from the trap. But he must be resolute.

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To: michael97123 who wrote (67727)1/22/2003 2:26:03 PM
From: paul_philp
   of 281382

I am really getting way tired of this demonization of the US and its leaders and the perpetuation of the both naive and selfish european view as the correct path.


Don't take it personally. It is inevitable. The international chess game was played under one set of rules for a very long time. Bush realized that continuing to play the game under those rules would mean that more 9-11 (and smaller) attacks on US soil. He is changing the rules and all the other players are in an uproar. Bush changing the rules introduces uncertainty into the international diplomatic system. Human beings don't do well with uncertainty, the usual response is to complain and defend the old system. The problem is magnified in Europe because it looks like they will have less power and influence in the emerging system. Increased uncertainity with less control is a root cause of neurotic behaviours. Remember that any transformation in the internation diplomacy system will cost many in high positions their jobs. Naturally, they will resist and campaign to prevent the change.

If Bush is successful, there will come a point where pragmatism will take hold in Europe and they will start asking "How can we optimise our self-interests in the new system?". Tony Blair's genius is that he understood the situation instantly.

I disagree with most of the 'deep' analysis about the rising anti-Americanism in Europe. I think it is simply instituitional inertia. The worst scenario would be to withdraw. The US must continue to engage, demonstrate leadership and insist on the right kind of instituitional reform. Success in Iraq is critical. Everyone loves a winner. If the day to day lives of the people in Iraq are only moderately improved a year from now, the bandwagon will turn around and drive the other way.


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To: michael97123 who wrote (67722)1/22/2003 2:26:04 PM
From: Maurice Winn
   of 281382
Michael, I risk a lot to better the world. But I hope not to sacrifice anything. I hope to profit. It is not a self-destructive sacrifice I hope to make. I'm not one of Osama's suicide squad, where one gets reward in the hereafter.

I just have a broader view of my self-interest than you seem to. As the USA has learned, it's all very well being for King [George II] and Country, but if the barbarians beyond the pale aren't also enjoying a modicum of civilization, they tend to scale the walls and make a bit of a mess.

That's especially the case in a globalized world where all the monkeys are in the same cage and there are no bars for the classy monkeys to hide behind.

Sure, I can try to defend a little corner for myself, but it's easier and better all around to gang up with the other monkeys who can see a better way and organize some rules of the house, so that the biggest apes don't fight each other for the girls, bananas and funny hat.

Gang warfare in a monkey cage is not a pleasant way to pass the day.

We don't have to give up anything to have things civilized. We gain.

I'm not saying that nations need fade away. On the contrary, I like the idea of many nations in which people could choose to live. Neither need we give up national concerns. Nature is fractalized and so is the human world.

We just need to join some bumping together fractal patterns into a bigger one.

It's funny how people imagine only bad things. Why on earth should there be a "lowest" common denominator? Why should leadership be by maniacs? Will you chose those? If not, why do you think other people will choose those?

No, I'm not prepared to sacrifice my material or other well-being in this pursuit. I intend to profit, along with everyone else. The losers will be the local megalomaniacs and those who profit from conflict and operate by confiscation, rather than voluntary exchange of value.

Nuclear weapons suppliers, and other military equipment makers will wish to kill me, and others like me, who are interested in reducing the need for their weapons of mass destruction [that's the USA mostly - they have the best weapons of mass destruction].

I don't see why extending civilization would involve giving up material or other well-being. The reason to do it is to INCREASE material and other well-being.

Why would you need to give up democratic institutions to extend material and abstract well-being?

Try to think how things can be, rather than how things are.

Are things now really as good as you can imagine? Must we must live forever with warring tribal interests with no rules acceptable to the majority of people on earth?

A time of abundance and freedom doesn't arrive by accident. They are created by people who are civilized, living in nations which do the creating. The nations won't be disappearing, but their inalienable right to wage war and terror on neighbouring nations will. But only if enough people have an imagination.

There isn't much sign of it around these parts. The best they can come up with is "UN bad", "USA good", so, USA rule world ... but none of that habeas corpus nonsense for aliens. It seems to surprise Americans that the aliens aren't necessarily thrilled with that idea.

We the Sheeple, will not be denied.

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To: Maurice Winn who wrote (67630)1/22/2003 2:26:45 PM
From: KLP
   of 281382
Ahhh, but Mq....what you say is so...civilized. Since when are murdering terrorists "civilized"? And I believe you are wrong about smallpox "bugs" being in only one or two labs....Remember just a few days ago the bruhaa about the Texas University and the missing smallpox vials? Why would this little lab have 180 vials of the many vials are all over the world....awaiting "tests"...and who is watching them...???

And remember a few years ago during the last Administration, the Atomic Energy thefts, and the State Department computer thefts? Has anyone stopped to wonder just who took those items, and just what was on them....?
Here's an article about the "missing" smallpox...

Arrest Made in Missing Vials Case

Thursday January 16, 2003 3:50 AM

LUBBOCK, Texas (AP) - A university professor was arrested Wednesday for allegedly telling authorities that 30 vials of plague were missing when he knew they had been destroyed, the U.S. attorney's office said.

The mysterious episode at Texas Tech University triggered a terrorism-alert plan and showed how jittery Americans are over the threat of a biological attack.

Dr. Thomas C. Butler, chief of the infectious diseases division of the department of internal medicine, was arrested late Wednesday on a complaint of making a false statement to a federal agent.

U.S. Attorney Dick Baker said the professor said the vials were missing as of Saturday when ``truth in fact, as he well knew, he had destroyed them prior to that.''

The samples, about 30 of the 180 the school was using for research on the treatment of plague, were reported missing to campus police Tuesday night.

Baker said FBI agents interviewed Butler on Tuesday. He wouldn't say whether Butler made the initial report or comment on why the vials were destroyed.

Butler, who has been at Texas Tech since 1987, was jailed pending his arraignment set for Thursday.

Earlier Wednesday, The FBI had only said it had accounted for the vials. An FBI official in Washington, speaking on condition of anonymity, had said authorities believed the samples of the lethal bacteria were simply destroyed and not properly accounted for, rather than stolen or misplaced.

``We have accounted for all those missing vials and we have determined that there is no danger to public safety whatsoever,'' FBI agent Lupe Gonzalez said at a news conference in Lubbock.

Plague - along with anthrax, smallpox and a few other deadly agents - is on a watch list distributed by the government, which wants to make sure doctors and hospitals recognize a biological attack quickly.

Health officials say 10 to 20 people in the United States contract plague each year, usually through infected fleas or rodents. The plague can be treated with antibiotics, but about one in seven U.S. cases is fatal.

Texas Tech said that officials thought it was ``prudent'' to get law enforcement involved because of current concerns about bioterrorism.

The FBI sent agents to Lubbock. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention also took part in the investigation. Homeland Security chief Tom Ridge contacted Lubbock's mayor. About 60 investigators from the FBI and other agencies converged on the medical school Tuesday night.

A post-Sept. 11 emergency plan was activated, under which Lubbock-area hospitals and medical personnel were notified to be on the lookout for cases of plague. But the public was not told about the incident until late Wednesday morning.

``We didn't want to spread panic,'' Texas Tech Chancellor David Smith said. ``As it turns out, they were never missing.'' He would not elaborate.

The vials were kept in an area with limited access but without a surveillance camera, officials said.

Mayor Marc McDougal said the public was not notified because of information the university received late Tuesday that indicated the missing vials were not a threat to the public.

``I think when you look how quickly it came down and how it got resolved, I think it would be hard to second guess'' how we handled it, he said. ``One thing we didn't want to do was cause people to panic.''

The form of the disease called bubonic plague is not contagious. But left untreated, it can transform into the more dangerous pneumonic plague that can be spread person to person. The most infamous plague outbreak began in 1347 and killed 38 million people in Europe and Asia within five years.


Associated Press Writer Curt Anderson in Washington contributed to this report.


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To: Karen Lawrence who wrote (67671)1/22/2003 2:27:22 PM
From: bela_ghoulashi
   of 281382
>>We plunged headlong into the Gulf war and failed to accomplish what Bush Sr. stated we were there to do...take out Saddam Hussein.<<

That's factually incorrect. The stated mission was to remove Saddam from Kuwait. That's what we did. Bush Sr. never stated we were there to "take out Saddam Hussein".

You're either making this crap up as you go along or you never understood it to begin with. I'm inclined to believe the latter.

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To: michael97123 who wrote (67732)1/22/2003 2:31:15 PM
From: Noel de Leon
   of 281382
It's naive to think that Saddam would show the inspectors WMDs if he had them. It's up to the inspectors to find them and always has been so. If they are so well hidden that the USAs intelligence services(British as well) can't find them then getting rid of Saddam by attacking him would probably leave the WMDs in place for some other nut case to use. Better for Saddam to seek refuge somewhere and have a gradual change from a dictatorship to a form of democracy.

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