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To: dumbmoney who wrote (134296)5/24/2004 9:16:03 PM
From: Hawkmoon   of 280800
 
Let me get this straight - you hate Europe, but love the Middle East? Are you nuts?

No.. actually, I just hate the French.. They should know better..

But I'm also not particularly pleased with either the Russians or Germans.

But while I'll likely never spend a voluntary moment in France anytime in the near future, I might still travel to Germany...

As for the Mid-East.. it's like Bush said.. It's a tragedy of history that the Mid-East has languished, both politically and economically, while the rest of the world is showing progress...

But it really comes down to vested interest.. The Mid-East has oil.. We need oil for the foreseeable future...

And we didn't have 19 virgin seeking German and French martyrs slamming aircraft into the WTC or threatening to destroy our very way of life with WMDs (should they be able to obtain enough of them).

Hawk

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To: h0db who wrote (134297)5/24/2004 9:31:05 PM
From: Hawkmoon   of 280800
 
Hawk, have you ever led men in battle?

Actually, since I'm no longer in the service, it's not relevant..(but the answer it no). But you claim to still be on active duty, and assumably that makes you a leader of men (or a very non-promotable Specialist).

But I don't have to be a combat leader to know one when I see it (or in this case, read about it).

But back to the point, what I presented you with was a individual WHO IS LEADING MEN IN BATTLE. Someone who is at the tip of the spear while you and I are sitting here playing armchair general..

When Shinseki retired last years as Chief of Staff of the Army, not one person from OSD attended the ceremony.

I know... I almost went because I felt so bad about that..

Or course, I had trouble with Shinseki because of that stupid idea of making everyone wear Black Berets made in China (they still look stupid).. I have a few buddies who are former Rangers and they weren't pleased either.

I'm saying that it is hard to conceive how it could have been handled worse.

Sure it could have.. It could have been handled just like Clinton "handled" it with Operation: Desert Fox back in 1998... Puff up the chest, throw a tantrum and throw a few bombs, and then just cave in again..

Could we have used more troops? Certainly.. Have there been delays in getting a handle on the insurgents and security situation there? Probably..

But as that solder fighting Sadr specified, there was simply no way we could have taken on Sadr previously while he still possessed some measure of support amongst the Shiites. We had to let him dig his own grave by pissing of people like Sistani to the point where he has given tacit support for taking Sadr out..

And one other aspect of this has been the delay in spending that reconstruction money.. It may actually have been a deliberate strategy aimed at creating a certain level of deperation on the part of the Iraqis for any kind of Iraqi government, indirectly lending it credibility and support that might have been lacking for any government that was still Baathist at heart... (I know this theory is a stretch, but it may have that result, nonetheless)..

Think about it.. maybe we sensed there would be terrorism used against Iraqis and maybe, just maybe, we recognized that only by having Iraqis terrorized by Baathist insurgents and foreign militants could we TRULY get them to support an interim Iraqi government.

If this was a strategy of permitting a planned level of terrorism to be inflicted upon Iraqis by these militants, its certainly not something that we could have come right out and discussed publicly..

But it could have a major impact on unifying people behind an interim government that stands strongly against terrorist factions.

Hawk

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To: Hawkmoon who wrote (134295)5/24/2004 9:36:08 PM
From: skinowski   of 280800
 
Second that. It seems that the only thing which will be able to cure much of the public opinion in Muslim countries from all this paranoid crapola is when Bin Ladinista's win political power... and force them to learn how to be "truly" observant.

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To: Hawkmoon who wrote (134298)5/24/2004 9:41:38 PM
From: dumbmoney   of 280800
 
Hawk,

It is dangerously naive to think we can "fix" the Middle East. It can't be done, and in the process of trying we'll create more bin Ladens. Maybe that doesn't bother you, but it bothers me.

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To: Hawkmoon who wrote (134295)5/24/2004 9:50:22 PM
From: dumbmoney   of 280800
 
But let a few thousand Palestinians die (along with over 1000 Jews), and you're flung into a full-fledged tirade..

Maybe you're not aware, but the U.S. sends $3 billion/year to Israel. The Arabs are certainly aware of American support for Israel, and it's a common (wrong) belief that Israel could not exist without American help. See the problem? We get blamed for what Israel does. That makes what Israel does the concern of every American.

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To: Win Smith who wrote (134212)5/24/2004 9:51:09 PM
From: stockman_scott   of 280800
 
Upcoming Guests on The Charlie Rose Show...

charlierose.com 

TUESDAY, May 25, 2004

TOM CLANCY
Author

GEN. ANTHONY ZINNI (RET.)
Former Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Central Command

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To: TimF who wrote (134269)5/24/2004 10:13:32 PM
From: Sam   of 280800
 
True they said that but that didn't stop them from in fact creating two countries. You can write anything down on paper, but reality often doesn't follow the written plan.


For heaven's sake, this argument is very old, but....
The "them" that wasn't stopped "from in fact creating two countries" were the Dulles brothers, Eisenhauer and the US military. It was "them" that decided to back some Catholics from the south who didn't want Ho in power, and Ho was certain to win the election. So they stopped the election and pretended that "South" Vietnam was a real country.

It wasn't.

That was the beginning of the mess. Or at least the beginning of the culpable US part of the mess, the mess itself predates that time by a number of decades, the French take the honors there.

It is the failure to recognize the fiction that was elevated into "fact" that is the cause of a good many dumb arguments about who invaded whom in Vietnam. If one takes the Geneva Accords seriously, there can be no argument. The US was wrong. End of story.

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To: Sam who wrote (134304)5/24/2004 10:25:41 PM
From: TimF   of 280800
 
It was a real country. It was also a mess but so are many other countries. You can try to blast the US and the government of South Vietnam for not taking part of the Geneva Accords seriously but the accords don't change reality. South Vietnam was as much a country as East Germany was or South Korea is. Or to give another example Taiwan. Few other countries recognize it as a country because they don't want to piss the PRC off but Tawian is indeed a real country.

Tim

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To: dumbmoney who wrote (134302)5/24/2004 10:26:07 PM
From: Hawkmoon   of 280800
 
Maybe you're not aware, but the U.S. sends $3 billion/year to Israel.

And maybe you're not aware that the US ALSO sends $2 Billion per year to Egypt... It was the price of the Camp David peace accords..

And maybe you're not aware that we're getting ready to spend $20 Billion on rebuilding Iraq.

Or that US foreign aid to Jordan will approach $500 million this year (along with a free trade pact).

You also may not be aware that the US is one of the larger donors to the Palestinians, although Congress has forbidden money being sent directly to the PA due to it's corruption.

The Arabs are certainly aware of American support for Israel, and it's a common (wrong) belief that Israel could not exist without American help.

The fact that they are not focusing on their sorry state of affairs, or the fact that their own economies are stagnating, if not collapsing, apparently are insufficient to take their eyes off the plight of the Palestinians.

Hawk

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To: dumbmoney who wrote (134301)5/24/2004 10:30:51 PM
From: Hawkmoon   of 280800
 
It is dangerously naive to think we can "fix" the Middle East. It can't be done, and in the process of trying we'll create more bin Ladens. Maybe that doesn't bother you, but it bothers me.

And it's equally naive to somehow think you can wish the problem away..

It can be done.. but it will take time and willpower, as well as the conviction of our beliefs that all governments should be held accountable to the will of their country's citizens.

As for creating more Bin Ladens, did you ever ponder the possibility that US complacency played a direct role in creating Bin Laden in the first place?

That maybe, in order to prevent the creation of more Bin Ladens, we need to play an interventionist role in the Mid-East in order to get them thinking about political and economic reform?

Did you happen to catch the news on the recent Arab League meetings? All kinds of "talk" about reform... Something that hasn't really be addressed by them in years, if ever...

I would say that's a major step in the right direction..

Hawk

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