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To: Elroy Jetson who wrote (191514)3/19/2009 3:46:41 PM
From: butschi2 of 306800
 
For each derivative loser there is an offsetting derivative winner. There is only counter-party risk.

If you only protected some MBS/CDO loosing value with some CDS, there are huge losses for the CDS writer and only protection(=no losses) for the buyer.

The buyer doesnt have any "real" gains, therefore capital is sapped from the system and because of CDS the recognizing of the CDS losses could perhaps be deferred for some time.

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From: Smiling Bob3/19/2009 3:52:47 PM
of 306800
 
Financials are are dragging down the DOW
Rest of mkt should get hit pretty hard tomorrow

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To: butschi2 who wrote (191921)3/19/2009 3:53:23 PM
From: Elroy Jetson of 306800
 
Except for counter-party risk, there derivatives always cancel out - a winner for every loser.

The bond owner has a real loss on their bonds and a real gain on their CDS.

When the economy collapses and companies fail, there are losses on bonds, stocks, and all types of ownership equity - regardless of whether these losses are insured or not. This occurs in the exact same dollar amount regardless of whether derivative products exist or were never allowed to exist.
.

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To: Les H who wrote (191790)3/19/2009 3:53:29 PM
From: Les H of 306800
 
Further, on March 12 according to Bloomberg.com, there's more. "Four Citigroup Inc. executives who bought the bank's stock last week have already generated a $2.2 million paper profit, regulatory filings show." Insiders included:

director Roberto Hernandez bought six million shares on March 2 at an average $1.25 price; after briefly dipping below $1, it closed on March 5 at $1.52 for a paper profit of $1.7 million;
Latin America CEO Manuel Medina-Mora bought 1.5 million shares on March 3 at an average $1.24; and
other buyers included vice-chairman Lewis Kaden buying 100,000 shares and controller and chief accounting officer John Gerspach 65,000 shares - in each case ahead of Pandit's profitability claim and the day earlier Wall Street Journal front page story saying Citi is in trouble.
Another key point is that the US Securities Exchange Act of 1934 "prohibit(s) the making of false or misleading statements to a public company's auditors." It's also "a crime to knowingly and willfully make a false or fraudulent statement in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the US government" (18 U.S.C. 1001, January 2007). Further, it's unlawful to mislead investors or violate any provision of the 1934 act. True or false, Pandit's memo was internal and only covered a two-month period, not the full Q 1 filing for after March 31, so likely no violation occurred.

That aside, there's the issue of stock manipulation and insider trading with the above-cited evidence casting suspicion. It's illegal for anyone to buy or sell securities based on non-public information, and those doing it face prosecution if caught. A high-profile case was against former Qwest CEO Joseph Nacchio - indicted in December 2005 on 42 insider trading counts involving $100 million worth of his company's stock, then convicted on 19 counts in April 2007. He was sentenced to six years in prison and ordered to forfeit $52 million in fraudulently earned profits plus a $19 million fine, $1 million for each count.

baltimorechronicle.com 

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From: Les H3/19/2009 3:58:46 PM
of 306800
 
Builder loans are the forgotten land mine in U.S. credit crisis
By James Saft ReutersPublished: March 10, 2009

LONDON: Banks in the United States face a new source of write-downs and failures in the coming year, as loans made to developers to finance residential and commercial property development rapidly go bad.

Because these loans are old-fashioned and concentrated in smaller banks, their outcomes are particularly interesting, as they indicate that issues with the banking system go far deeper than the so-called toxic assets belonging to the largest lenders that have thus far gotten most of the attention and government aid.

They are also a great illustration of the difficulties of stopping a housing and deleveraging crash.

Called acquisition, construction and development, or ADC, loans, they total 8.4 percent of all bank loans, just below a 30-year peak, and are used by developers to buy land, put in infrastructure and construct housing or commercial space.

And because they depend on a reasonably healthy real estate market when projects are completed - someone who is willing to buy or rent the properties - they are now in deep trouble.

"Everyone in the media is focused on consumer foreclosures," said Ivy Zelman, a housing analyst at Zelman & Associates. "What they're not focused on is the builder-developer foreclosures, which are only in the early innings and which will continue to wreak havoc as these assets are liquidated at depressed prices. Until they are cleared, there can't be a stabilization in home prices."

Zelman thinks the pressure will cause "hundreds of banks" to close.

"The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation doesn't have the funds to deal with all this," she said. "They can't examine the smaller banks fast enough."

Zelman estimates that U.S. banks risk having to charge off an additional $84 billion in ADC loans between now and 2013, equal to a hit of 9 percent of Tier 1 capital.

Nonperforming ADC loans hit 8.5 percent at the end of 2008, up from just 3.2 percent the year before.

Developers, struggling to survive without reliable cash flow from sales, are drawing down on commitments from banks that are not secured. The percentage of unsecured construction loans drawn down hit 73 percent, above the peak in the 1990s real estate slump and a crucial sign of builder distress.

Of particular concern is that ADC loans are concentrated in smaller banks, which tend to have deep ties to local developers. ADC loans account for 47 percent of nonperforming loans at small banks, compared with 14 percent at larger banks.

And you cannot blame mark-to-market or toxic securitizations for these losses. They are considered held-to-maturity and are not typically included in any complex securities.

Chris Whalen of Institutional Risk Analytics, which specializes in bank risk analysis, sees ADC loans as part of the difficulties banks face with commercial real estate and believes that regulators will have to get tough with banks.

"It will be subject to an impairment test, and then they will have to start charging it off," he said. "The regulators are already beginning to force the community banks."

And while smaller banks being closed by the FDIC may not get the attention of a bailout of a big bank, every failure depletes resources and hurts credit availability.

The FDIC fund fell by almost half in the fourth quarter alone, touching $18.9 billion as it set aside a large portion of money for actual and expected bank failures. The FDIC has said it needs a bigger cushion, but efforts to impose special fees on healthy banks will inevitably hit profitability and credit availability.

Senator Christopher Dodd, Democrat of Connecticut and chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, is moving to introduce legislation that would more than triple - to $100 billion - the FDIC's line of credit with the Treasury Department.

But beyond bank failures, ADC loan troubles point to the intractable problems of a real estate bust.

Banks, while trying to reduce their overall exposure to these loans, have been reluctant to pull the rugs from under borrowers because, as with a house foreclosure, they would end up owning a hard-to-sell underlying asset. But more foreclosures are coming, and with them fire sales, as banks compete with developers, homeowners and other foreclosure sales to liquidate inventory.

That will drive land and real estate prices down further and suck others into what amounts to a self-reinforcing negative cycle.

That's true for housing, true for banking and true for the economy.

iht.com 

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To: Secret_Agent_Man who wrote (191906)3/19/2009 3:59:20 PM
From: geode00 of 306800
 
I think that individuals, small businesses, the majority of health professionals, large corporations, etc. are in the same boat albeit with somewhat different and competing requirements...but essentially in the same place. I would like to see more seats in medical schools and publicly sponsored medical school education (no $200K debt overhang) in return for single payer nationalized health care.

Health care professionals wouldn't make huge salaries but they wouldn't answer to insurance company lackeys either. Just as with banking, money isn't the answer to every single question in life.

At least the words 'single payer' finally make sense to a great many people. It will be an enormous fight but it is worth it for the USA to join the ranks of civilized countries. My two cents.

pnhp.org 

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To: patron_anejo_por_favor who wrote (191915)3/19/2009 4:00:59 PM
From: geode00 of 306800
 
Plus the drug trade is threatening to bring down Mexico and our border states along with it. Pretty frightening stuff going on in places like Phoenix.

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To: geode00 who wrote (191926)3/19/2009 4:01:47 PM
From: Secret_Agent_Man of 306800
 
i am in fact in favor- these slime balls need their collective heads chopped off-

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To: Les H who wrote (191925)3/19/2009 4:03:22 PM
From: Think4Yourself of 306800
 
There is also the last big wave of ARM resets coming next year, and most of those people will not qualify to refinance. We are in quiet time right now, something us old timers knew would happen years ago. I am hoping builders rise on this rally. Haven't been short a builder in at least 6 months but will be more than happy to short them later this summer.

Folk speculating in real estate are in for a big surprise/shock next year, except for the very few with the brains to do their homework. This isn't over.

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To: Think4Yourself who wrote (191929)3/19/2009 4:06:19 PM
From: ajtj99 of 306800
 
Pay option ARM's are the big bomb in 2010-2011. About a hundred eleventeen percent of those are bad, and that's just the good ones.

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