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To: Gib Bogle who wrote (71926)	12/30/2009 10:18:57 PM
From: Maurice Winn	2 Recommendations of 74257

Yes, but as soon as we absolve people from the consequences of their personal decisions, whether they are following the mob so feel safe, or not, we get into carnage. Look at the horrors resulting from the welfare state in NZ for example where infants and young children are regularly tortured to death. The communist idea is superficially attractive - all in together, one for all and all for one and all that good kumbaya stuff which in practise works badly, or not at all. There is jargon for it = moral hazard. The Germans must have felt pretty good about themselves too, shouting sieg heil and marching and singing. Often what seems like a good idea at the time en masse very quickly turns to custard. China does a good line in mindless patriotism, marching and obeying these days too, which could have very unpleasant results given the 100 million spare young males. Sure, Adolf was happy to be the leader, but the following mob has the main responsibility because if they didn't show up to his rally, he'd look a bit silly strutting around glowering. I had a look at buying a house in Escondido USA in 2006 but it was about twice the price I thought reasonable and I wasn't thinking of taking on 100% mortgage with a dodgy low-paid job. It's ridiculous that people blame Fannie and Freddie for lending them money. The shareholders of Fannie and Freddie could reasonably be angry with their managers for making dopey 100% loans to people with no visible means of support for obviously over-priced houses. But customers blaming a company for supplying them what they want to buy is ridiculous. Customers have to decide for themselves whether the thing being sold is a good thing for them. It would be an insult for a supplier to tell a customer that they are not allowed to buy. A seller of a Rolls Royce shouldn't presume to tell a buyer that they are not the right sort of person to buy. If the seller's judgment on the likely profit tells them it's okay to sell, then that's all they need to worry about. Borrowers depending on the lender's judgment about their ability to manage the loan is stupid. The job of the lenders is to lend and manage their statistical risks so that they maximize their profits. Blaming suppliers is absurd. Mqurice

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To: Maurice Winn who wrote (71927)	12/31/2009 12:06:51 AM
From: Gib Bogle	1 Recommendation of 74257

Absolving people from the consequences of their decisions is usually a mistake. I'm sure we agree about many, maybe most cases. For example, it's absurd to sue the cigarette maker when you get lung cancer. But things are not always so simple. As my Mum used to say, the quality of mercy is not strained, and not all requests for relief are without merit. The question is what, if anything, should be done to protect people from their own mistakes. The best way to test the idea that people must always be held responsible for the consequences of their decisions is by a kind of reductio ad absurdum, i.e. to look at an extreme case, e.g. the supply of heroin. As a Libertarian you probably think that there should be no restrictions on the sale of any drugs. After all, it is a matter of personal responsibility to buy and use heroin, and if you get addicted it's your choice. Following this line of reasoning, surely there's no justification for putting age limits on the sale of heroin, either. Now we are arguing for a position that would be unacceptable to 99.9% of the population, who would say that young people at least should be protected from their own folly, and probably more than 50% would say that even adults should be protected from this kind of folly. OK, it's an extreme example, but it illustrates the general point that society - probably any society that we'd call civilized - accepts the idea of protection for the weak, the stupid, the vulnerable. Do you accept this idea in any form?

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To: Gib Bogle who wrote (71928)	12/31/2009 8:42:35 AM
From: Haim R. Branisteanu	of 74257

US Jobless Claims -22K To 432K In Dec 26 Week By Luca Di Leo and Sarah N. Lynch Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES WASHINGTON (Dow Jones)--The number of people filing new claims for unemployment benefits in the U.S. unexpectedly fell in the latest week to its lowest level in 18 months, a sign the labor market may have turned a corner. Meantime, the Labor Department said in its weekly report Thursday that the number of people collecting jobless benefits for more than a week also continued to decline. Initial claims for unemployment benefits fell by 22,000 to a seasonally adjusted 432,000 in the week ended Dec. 26, the lowest level since July 19, 2008. Economists surveyed by Dow Jones Newswires had forecast claims would rise by 3,000. The Labor Department revised the initial claims level for the week of Dec. 19 to 454,000 from an originally reported 452,000. The tally of continuing claims, or those drawn by workers collecting benefits for more than one week, fell by 57,000 to 4,981,000 in the week ended Dec. 19. The four-week average of new claims, which aims to smooth volatility in the data, dropped by 5,500 to 460,250 - marking its 17th consecutive drop. That was the lowest level since Sep. 20, 2008. The unemployment rate for workers with unemployment insurance for the week ending Dec. 19 remained unchanged at 3.8%. U.S. Federal Reserve officials earlier this month said the deterioration in the labor market was abating, but reaffirmed plans to keep interest rates near zero for several months due to still-high unemployment. Recent data signal that the U.S. recovery from the worst recession in decades is taking hold. Orders for durable goods, or those intended to last more than three years, were up 0.2% in November as strength returned to the manufacturing sector. Robust retail sales and improving consumer confidence, meanwhile, have raised expectations for strong economic growth in the fourth quarter. That's prompted some optimism that employers may resume hiring early in the next year. The U.S. unemployment rate declined unexpectedly to 10% in November as employers cut jobs at the slowest pace since the recession began at the end of 2007. The Labor Department is set to release December unemployment and nonfarm payroll figures next Friday. Economists at Wrightson ICAP predicted in a note Wednesday that the jobless rate may have inched lower to 9.9% in December. In Thursday's report, Michigan reported the largest jump in new claims - 8,382 - during the Dec. 19 week due to an increase in layoffs in the automobile industry. Regional figures are not adjusted to reflect seasonal fluctuations. Tennessee reported the largest decrease in initial claims - 2,972 - but did not provide a reason for the drop. -By Luca Di Leo and Sarah N. Lynch, Dow Jones Newswires; 202-862-6682; luca.dileo@dowjones

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To: Gib Bogle who wrote (71928)	12/31/2009 11:05:09 AM
From: ponokee	of 74257

"As my Mum used to say, the quality of mercy is not strained," A good lady obviously... PORTIA: The quality of mercy is not strain'd, It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest; It blesseth him that gives and him that takes: 'Tis mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes The throned monarch better than his crown; His sceptre shows the force of temporal power, The attribute to awe and majesty, Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings; But mercy is above this sceptred sway; It is enthroned in the hearts of kings, It is an attribute to God himself; And earthly power doth then show likest God's When mercy seasons justice. Therefore, Jew, Though justice be thy plea, consider this, That, in the course of justice, none of us Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy; And that same prayer doth teach us all to render The deeds of mercy. I have spoke thus much To mitigate the justice of thy plea; Which if thou follow, this strict court of Venice Must needs give sentence 'gainst the merchant there.

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To: Haim R. Branisteanu who wrote (71915)	12/31/2009 11:13:17 AM
From: Haim R. Branisteanu	of 74257

Chicago PMI was revised down to 58.7 from 60 - this is a clear another indicator to delude the masses into believing in a recovery. •Update: On December 31, 2009, there was a follow-up report indicating seasonal-adjustment factors resulted in the initial reading being revised from 60.0 to 58.7. The comment below has been edited to reflect the change. •The Chicago PMI, which is compiled by the Institute of Supply Management - Chicago and Kingsbury International, Ltd., broke well ahead of consensus expectations as the index rose from 56.1 to 58.7 in December. The consensus estimate expected the PMI to fall one point to 55.1. •The index is now at its highest point since January 2006 and shows the third consecutive month of manufacturing expansion in the Chicago region. briefing.com In actuality the index in December was lower than in November at 52.8 (Nov. was 53.8) SEASONAL ADJUSTMENTS - brought it up to 60 which is now lowered. What a country - ruled by a small bunch of Thieves and Swindlers who have the upper hand ism-chicago.org

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