Non-Tech | Meet Gene, a NASDAQ Market Maker


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To: dannobee who wrote (1163)10/11/2000 2:56:14 AM
From: rjm2   of 1426
 
Shhhh, Danno . They'll call you a naked short for sure if you talk like that around an otcbb stock board.
You have it down pretty good, only I tend to think the shares are not sold directly to a market maker but rather an "outside insider" at a discount who then feeds them out and makes guaranteed profit with no risk.

Or in the case of many, like JAWS, SEXI & more, they just print them and sell them. Rules ? Laws ? Regulations ? What is the downside I ask you ? Having to give back anything you havent spent is not sufficient downside.

The REAL sham is that I can't short the scams because IF I COULD, I would be a multi-millionaire right now.

Just do happens I have gotten lucky about 3-4 dozen times in a row ! But I didnt make a penny. Still, ask anyone at VALH, I am a naked evil short that ruins companies for fun & profit.

About the only thing I agree with is that the neophytes SHOULD take delivery of their certs. Not because its going to make anyone cover, but because chances are, if there is a "pull your certs" campaign going on, the certs MIGHT be suitable for proof of tuition.

The sad thing is these suckers just keep lining up to give them more & more money.

What pisses me off the most is I cant short them. No instead,I shorted AMZN,ICGE and PSUN last year and got hurt on each one. But I can walk around and brag that I was right on them...I just lost about $15k in the process ! LOL


Does anyone know of a broker that allows me to short otcbb stocks ? I have had dozens of neophtes tell me how "easy" it is. I searched long & hard and finally found a canadian firm that would take my account if I swore i was a canadian citizen, paid $200 or so in commissions per trade and wanted 5 times the stock price in free cash. Those terms were not acceptable to me.

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To: rjm2 who wrote (1170)10/11/2000 8:02:04 PM
From: ISOMAN   of 1426
 
It's really really hard to find shares available to short when it comes to OTC stocks, especially the thinly traded ones...

I mean, How many people hold OTC CARP in the margin account or how many funds and pension funds actually buy OTC CARP.

I AM a Canadian.

I have a broker that will allow shorting OTC.

I pay $75 a side, so $150 round trip.

I also have to have 300% ratio meaning...if I short a $1 otc, I have to have $3 in the account (Of which $1 is from the sale)

And I'll say this.

If you short anything under a $1 on the OTC, you have got big gajungas.

It isn't worth it.

If you short a 25 cent stock, what's your best possible return.. 25 cents.

and if some tout pumps that sucker to $1 before you can cover..

OW!

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To: gene_the_mm who wrote (1154)10/11/2000 9:01:13 PM
From: Threei   of 1426
 
This goes back to our discussion on RB about personal responsibility and how rare it is in modern times.

Let me quote training session I was holding today on RealityTrader.


We live in society that has some protecting structures in all aspects.
There is nothing like that in stock market.
Nothing will stop you from self-destroying.
In this situation, you have to count on yourself only.
You have to assume absolute responsibility for everything that happens to your account.
Nobody and nothing is there to blame.
You are the one who makes final decision and pushes the button.
It's tough to think like this, and it takes guts...
because you have to step out of comfort zone "It's not my fault, there is nothing I could do about it" to comfortless "I can do it and I am going to take responsibility for result".
Plenty of people prefer to stay in comfort zone - "it's someone's fault, some evil intentions or unmanageable forces hurt me". And sometimes they might even be right.
But guess what?
It doesn't help!
You have to make your choice: what is it that you want
comfort or result?
You want result - fine, take the responsibility.
If someone is to blame - you will never learn.
How could you if you did everything right and still lost?
Your trading becomes just gambling:
either those higher powers cut in and ruined your trade, or they didn't.
In any case, result depends on something else, so why to learn?
"I lost connection",
"Darn GSCO MM",
"INCA killed me, it should be made illegal to hold stock like this",
"Software got frozen on me",
"News wasn't fresh",
"Call was not good"
those are variables of the same "It's not my fault".

And BTW, Alex... I am absolutely sure NITE is not the one stealing socks... I know for sure it's HRZG. NITE is specializing in slippers.

Vadym

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To: Threei who wrote (1172)10/11/2000 10:58:42 PM
From: Dan Duchardt   of 1426
 
Threei,

Plenty of people prefer to stay in comfort zone - "it's someone's fault, some evil intentions or unmanageable forces hurt me". And sometimes they might even be right.
But guess what?
It doesn't help!


This, IMHO, cuts to the heart of the matter. Nobody here will ever convince me that the market is without a fair portion of the abuses many people complain about, or that I as an individual trader sitting in front of my computer am on an equal footing with the MMs and specialists. But I do accept that my success as a trader is not going to come from getting those things "fixed". It will come from learning how to do the best that can be done within whatever framework exists. If other traders can be successful with things the way they are, then so can I, or I have to just stop trying.

With that said, I will also say that I find extremely offensive the arguments defending the status quo by saying only stupid greedy people who deserve to lose their money anyway are investors in fly by night companies that trade in the public markets. If the OTC BB stocks are nothing but a collection of rip off schemes, and that somehow justifies shady tactics used to separate people who are willing to invest in start-ups from their money, then there is something fundamentally wrong with the system that is being supported by the market establishment and it needs to be changed.

Dan

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To: Dan Duchardt who wrote (1173)10/12/2000 1:01:53 AM
From: Jon Tara   of 1426
 
Dan, the OTC BB stocks are nothing but a collection of rip off schemes. That doesn't justify shady tactics used to separate people who are willing to invest in start-ups from their money.

There is something fundamentally wrong with that system - though I'm not so sure that it is being supported by the (mainstream) market establishment - and it needs to be changed.

IMO, the OTC-BB and pink sheet markets are largely made of of total frauds, and most of these stocks should not be allowed to trade.

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To: Jon Tara who wrote (1174)10/12/2000 1:26:45 AM
From: rjm2   of 1426
 
Total frauds might be a bit much. A lot of times you have guys that couldnt get conventional venture capital funding so they merge with a nasty shell, hey, they dont have to pay any $$ raised back !
And there are a few asset plays & undervalued stocks amongst the crap.

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To: Jon Tara who wrote (1174)10/12/2000 9:56:31 AM
From: dannobee   of 1426
 
Jon's on track here. The OTCBB and pinks, IMHO, are nothing short of playing the lottery. If you so choose to step up to the table, be prepared to lose all of your bet and go on to the next trade. I remember way back in my college days, armed with newly discovered information on the probability of dice, following a year of statistics and probability classes, going into a casino in Vegas, only to discover their odds favored them far more than those of straight probability, and also varied from casino to casino. You should view the BB stocks in the same context. The rules are made up by people with more power than you and I, vary from stock to stock, and if you don't like the rules, play a different game. Unlike a casino, there are a countless number of games to play in the market. Find one that matches YOUR risk tolerance, one that YOU think has the best "odds" for YOU. If the odds suddenly change against you, go on to the next game. But, IMHO, regarding the BB/pinks, you can weed out damn near all of the lousy ones by just screening for positive revenues and doing 10 minutes worth of DD on the Financial Statements, especially the Statement of Cash Flows. And if you can't find a current 10Q or 10K, don't even think about "investing," no matter how good their story is.

Danno

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To: rjm2 who wrote (1175)10/12/2000 10:11:36 AM
From: Evil Speculator (tm)   of 1426
 
[T]here are a few asset plays & undervalued stocks amongst the crap.

That's true, there are a bunch of banks and other genuine, established companies on the OTCBB and in the Pinks. And yes, some legitimate firms use shells to go public.

In my opinion, though, that number isn't large enough to be worth the price that many investors have paid for some of the other issues listed there in the past. I strongly believe that the listing requirements need to be raised for both the Pinks and the OTCBB. The legitimate OTCBB and Pink issues also aren't enough to prove to me that a virtually listing-free equity trading environment is, in any way, a "necessity."

As I see it, if venture capitalists - those who make their living assessing and risking their funds on new, largely untested companies - wouldn't invest in a particular firm...and, that same firm cannot qualify for even NASDAQ SC inclusion...and if no investment bank (and there are some very small but well-heeled and hungry ones out there) can or will find any sort of funding/investment, however primitive, for it...then, in my personal opinion, the firm simply hasn't reached a point where this oft cited need for funding is justified.

Who ever proposed that an equity listing was in any, way a corporation's "right"; a right that with regard to most of the specific issues in question, supercedes minimum tests of financial wherewithall?

Where - in the S&P100/500/600; in the Nasdaq 100; in any of the Dow Jones averages; in the Russell 2000; or even on the NASDAQ, NYSE, or AMEX - has flimsy paper ever evolved into a strong corporate interest? I'm sure there are a few; but: in percentage terms, as compared to those who've lingered on the OTCBB or in the Pinks indefinitely, and those who've delisted or slid down to a fraction of their original value, I'd bet the numbers aren't compelling, to say the least.

Raising the OTCBB and Pink sheet minimum inclusion requirements - even if just somewhat below what NASDAQ SC requires - will faciliate the always-beneficial kicking in of competitive forces, will protect investors, and overall serve to free up regulators' time.

I strongly object to any assertion that either (a) some emerging business requirement will not be met if there is no OTCBB/pink sheet-type facility in the markets; and/or (b) that some brilliant, new idea may not see the light of day for the lack of what amounts to a "come-as-you-are" home for equity issues.

LPS5

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To: Evil Speculator (tm) who wrote (1177)10/12/2000 12:23:22 PM
From: Evil Speculator (tm)   of 1426
 
Another measure that could - with, as described in the previous message, both (a) more stringent inclusion requirements and (admittedly a more intangible measure) (b) a realignment of the philosophies surrounding equity capitalization as it pertains to small corporate interests - improve the OTCBB and pink sheets. In my opinion, of course.

Message 14566284

LPS5

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To: Evil Speculator (tm) who wrote (1178)10/12/2000 1:36:44 PM
From: rjm2   of 1426
 
Wow, this means market makers for otcbb issues will have to...gasp...honor their posted bids and offers ! LOL

There are a number of OTCBB issues that are not the share issuing, hype mongering pump & dumps. As you said, some banks, a number of cash rich "shells" looking for a business rather than a business looking for cash. (PERS,LBPI,ESGR)

There are also some issues that have fallen on hard times but lack the shadyness of most otcbb issues. (CRTN,DIYH,AGBG) These kind of stocks do not deserve to be lumped in with the hundreds of others whose primary purpose is to raise $, and along the way, they will try their hand at a business or two.
I personally follow the bottom tier of the nasdaq smallcap market and those sometimes get booted to the otcbb where,without the hype, the valuations tend to fall well below private market values. My philosophy is that I am not smarter than dozens of analysts and I do not have access to their information, therefore, I do not have any advantage and indeed I am at a DISadvantage in large cap stocks.
With the little pissant issues I follow, I am usually more informed than most. Sometimes that is an advantage. Generally, I want to do the opposite of the masses.
So if some pump & dump group takes a position in one of my low float issues, I sell into the hype and then buy back as the easy money folks sell out in disgust. When my 2-3 year price target is reached in a few days, I am happy to sell into the hype.

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