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To: kech who wrote (19499)2/24/2002 3:52:18 PM
From: Zed4   of 117520
 
No. Show me a pricing plan that will lead to profits for operator and supplier.

Minor Grub.

edit: Looking at FO data networks as an example - what made these networks worthless was not that they didn't work but rather that there was an extreme excess of capacity. The exact same situation exists in voice capacity today - that's why prices just keep going down, down, down...

As for data over phones, there's no proven market for this service; with the data rates offered, I'll stick with my blackberry that runs on cheapo data networks. The all-in-one devices are rarely successful because there is no real need for them.

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To: Zed4 who wrote (19500)2/24/2002 4:02:56 PM
From: slacker711   of 117520
 
Show me a pricing plan that will lead to profits for operator and supplier.

Verizon Wireless...

Slacker

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To: slacker711 who wrote (19501)2/24/2002 4:04:19 PM
From: Zed4   of 117520
 
How will verizon do when their competition goes under, then comes out of bankruptcy with all of the debt off the books - will verizon still be able to compete and make money?

Rob

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To: Zed4 who wrote (19500)2/24/2002 4:52:44 PM
From: Kent Rattey   of 117520
 
FO networks aren't a good example. People outside the industry don't understand that a lack of capacity in the metro and last mile has caused the illusion of over capacity in the long haul. This is due to the regulatory BS of the Telecommunications Act of "96". With the deployment of DWDM, bandwidth is designed to be abundant and cheap, but people have to have access to it at reasonable costs...

DWDM is deflating the value of older networks because they can be built now for a fraction of the cost: It has nothing to do with pricing power. With AVNX's PowerMux, were seeing 160 channel systems from Nortel (Optera) and 176 channels from Fujitsu. When I first worked for GENU, our network had 4. Now, you can lease an entire lambda from a carrier.

Interestingly, the vision of AVNX is 500,000 lambdas per fiber, and they say we need it for access rather than bandwidth. Routers will virtually disappear and the network will OADM, virtually reverting it back to a circuit network vs. a packet network. Back to the Future!

Here's another tidbit for the naysayers of the optical revolution; the metro buildout will be 25x the cost and time of the long haul build.

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To: Kent Rattey who wrote (19503)2/24/2002 5:00:10 PM
From: Zed4   of 117520
 
Are you saying there is no excess of voice capacity? Why are prices dropping for voice, both wired and wireless?

Why implement new technologies for more voice capacity if there's already enough of it? Why add data to voice networks when paging networks are sufficient for existing, proven applications?

The last mile problem will be solved when companies can identify the compelling applications and services that will generate revenues and profits. IMO, the current offerings fall way short on both fronts, and represent solutions looking for a problem.

Regards, Rob

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To: Zed4 who wrote (19502)2/24/2002 5:13:27 PM
From: slacker711   of 117520
 
How will verizon do when their competition goes under, then comes out of bankruptcy with all of the debt off the books - will verizon still be able to compete and make money?

Hmmm....you seem to believe that the operators will go bankrupt. You ask for a pricing plan that will be profitable for both operators and suppliers.

I point out that Verizon Wireless is profitable....and you you say that they wont be once the other operators go out of business.

Circular argument? I think so...

Anyway....the edited version of your post talks about overcapacity in the wireless industry.

Interesting to hear critics of the wireless industry talk both about too much AND too little capacity. Ever try and make a wireless call at 5 pm? In most parts of the country, I find the argument that there is too much capacity less than compelling.

Slacker

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To: slacker711 who wrote (19505)2/24/2002 5:18:40 PM
From: Zed4   of 117520
 
You've confused circular, with a cycle. Yes, a very destructive cycle.

If there is a shortage of voice capacity, why are prices declining at an alarming rate. Economics 101 dictates that there must be an oversupply, or that demand is decreasing.

Take your pick.

Regards, Rob

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To: Zed4 who wrote (19506)2/24/2002 5:28:26 PM
From: slacker711   of 117520
 
If there is a shortage of voice capacity, why are prices declining at an alarming rate. Economics 101 dictates that there must be an oversupply, or that demand is decreasing.

Hmmm....the price of DVD players is falling. Lack of demand? Oversupply? I say neither.

The dropping prices of wireless minutes (and DVD players) indicates that the capacity crisis is easing. It does not mean that there is an overcapacity.

The two scenarios are dramatically different. Wireless operators are still selling minutes far above their incremental cost to produce a mintute.

Slacker

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To: slacker711 who wrote (19507)2/24/2002 5:36:21 PM
From: Zed4   of 117520
 
There is no capacity crisis - only an equilibrium price point on a supply-demand curve and the marginal cost of producing the next unit. I say price is coming down faster than cost.

Invested new money in voice/data combined networks is staring right in the face of the law of diminishing returns. You say they're making money - the capital markets (and myself :^>) are saying they are losing money and its only going to get worse, much worse.

We'll see.

Rob

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To: Zed4 who wrote (19506)2/24/2002 7:39:59 PM
From: arun gera   of 117520
 
>If there is a shortage of voice capacity, why are prices declining at an alarming rate. Economics 101 dictates that there must be an oversupply, or that demand is decreasing.>

Prices in wireless are not really dropping all that much. Don't be fooled by the 4000 off-peak minutes that nobody uses. The plans are a sham. They make you gamble all the time. I have 500 anytime minutes. And in some months I use 200 and in others 400. I can't go down to the 300 minute plan because, they sock it to me when I go over my limit. So I end up paying $50 a month for about 250 minutes, costing me 20 cents a minute. Maybe I am being stupid.

Arun

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