Technology Stocks | Amati vs Westell, DMT vs CAP ADSL


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To: Luke Smithwick who wrote (1289)1/7/1997 12:37:00 PM
From: Vladimir Zelener   of 1365
 
Hi Luke:

<<As far as CAP vs. DMT - both were invented at Bell Laboratories.>>

AMTX claims they are the owner of the DMT patent. Are the wrong?

Does LU or T or Paradyne have any intellectual property and if yes will either of them collect roylty from ADSL modem manufactures?

<<I would be really careful with my investments in Si vendor stocks until then...>>

Please fogive me for maybe a naive question but what is Si vendor?

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To: Luke Smithwick who wrote (1289)1/7/1997 1:45:00 PM
From: j rector   of 1365
 
HI Luke,

"The DSL environment
is better suited for single carrier systems (CAP/QAM)."

I have read and heard the opposite. Can you give me a
rational argument for this statement?

As far as I can see, the AMTX Overture 8 modem outperforms
CAP modems to the point that the CAP camp refused to include
CAP modems in the trials.

j.

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To: bill c. who wrote (1290)1/9/1997 10:07:00 AM
From: Luke Smithwick   of 1365
 
Bill,

Well, this one is easy - guess where John Cioffi worked before he went to Stanford...

You got it - Bell Labs sent Cioffi to school for his Ph.D. I know this information as I worked in the same group from which he came (after he left).

Burt Salzberg came up with the concept of multicarrier systems in 1968 and Steve Weinstein invented the idea of doing it with an FFT.

Amati (Cioffi) simply coined the term "DMT" - the concept had been around for years...

Luke

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To: (no name provided) who wrote (1291)1/9/1997 10:13:00 AM
From: Luke Smithwick   of 1365
 
engineer - whoever you are,

It is true that both CAP and DMT are "used" in DSL, however, Bell Labs made a firm decision in 1988 that CAP was significantly more suited to the DSL due to complexity and power contrains of the network see NEBS Equipment Design Standards.

There are many more issues that favor CAP which I am covering in a white paper...

Hope this helps.

Luke

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To: Vladimir Zelener who wrote (1292)1/9/1997 10:18:00 AM
From: Luke Smithwick   of 1365
 
Vladimir,

To answer you questions -

AMTX has patents on DMT IMPLEMENTATIONS - note this is not necessarily fundamental DMT IP. This is why AMTX pushed so hard for the T1.413 standard to be exactly what they already did in the lab. This is not to say they don't have other IP.

I do not know all the details on LU, T, and PDN IP, but I would be VERY surprised if they did not own at least some of the fundamental patents.

Si vendor - Si = Silicon.

Hope this helps.

Luke

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To: j rector who wrote (1293)1/9/1997 10:25:00 AM
From: Luke Smithwick   of 1365
 
I am sure you have heard that DMT is better than CAP/QAM. AMTX has waged a very effective PR campaign to date.

From what source do you see that the AMTX Overture 8 outperforms CAP modems? The comparisons I have seen are not "apples to apples."

Most of the CAP vendors have refused trials that do not appear to be properly structured.

Note that over 90% of all FIELD trials (more valid than lab trials which can be easily rigged) to date have been CAP modems. Moreover. they all perform as advertised with REAL production quality chipsets.

T1E1 is taking another look at what they did in the T1.413 standard...

Hope this helps.

Luke

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To: Luke Smithwick who wrote (1295)1/9/1997 11:45:00 AM
From: (no name provided)   of 1365
 
LJS, I'll look into your BLTJ paper when I have time. I wonder when John will start posting in SI too. Thank you for your comments. e.

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To: Luke Smithwick who wrote (1294)1/9/1997 12:03:00 PM
From: bill c.   of 1365
 
Luke:

Thanks for the information.... I was down in Middletown at the end of last year and met a number of the 35 or so Globespan team members. I was able to see the testing room, modem building area and talked with John M. about CAP and some of the advantages of CAP.

The BIG question that keeps arising in the AMTX ,WSTL ,ORCTF and AWRE threads, deal with the distance/performance issue. Granted CAP does have a number of advantages of size, power, functionality of a single chip that supports XDSL,..., but the distance/performance keeps coming up.

The perception is that DMT outperforms CAP when noise is introduced. I wish I could read your white paper on the CAP performance/distance subject. The lack of information in this area makes many of us draw conclusions on what marketing/PR types print and say. This is why the Teledotcom evaluations are so important to many of us. You have modem A and B tested on the same CSA 12,000ft line to settle this issue on performance.

Here are a few other areas of concern:

1) Chip manufacturing..... Globespan keeps on stating that they have the only production chips available. My concern is that WSTL now has to write-off many of those chips 1.5Mpbs/64kbps production chips because the customers are willing to wait for the RADSL chips. Within the next 3-4 months MOT and ADI should start producing standard DMT chips.

2) All of the press releases never state distance. (ex) 12Mbps chip announced at the Atlanta Interopt show.

I have to go now... but as a novice in this area its seem Globalspan is making an attempt to hide certain information. I'm sure the DMT camp is doing the same.... It just doesn't seem as obvious to me.

Good luck at your new postition.... until later...

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To: Luke Smithwick who wrote (1297)1/9/1997 3:20:00 PM
From: j rector   of 1365
 
luke, Cut the crap. If you can answer
the question honestly and objectively, please
do so. But you have done nothing but blow hot air.

Why did bell Labs tests show DMT superiority?
Why did Nortel tests show improved RF noise rejection
by DMT?
Why did the BT results show major problems for CAP VDSL
intefereing w/HAM operators?

Give us some facts, not some opinions.

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To: Luke Smithwick who wrote (1297)1/9/1997 4:30:00 PM
From: Steve Macica   of 1365
 
>>I am sure you have heard that DMT is better than CAP/QAM. AMTX has waged a
very effective PR campaign to date.

I wouldn't call the Bellcore Test results (the basis for the ANSI standard DMT decision) a PR campaign. Check out the Globespan WEB site, now thats a PR campaign.

>> From what source do you see that the AMTX Overture 8 outperforms CAP modems?

One might infer it from the GTE Phase 2 trial where they are using "high speed" modems (OV8).

I have made a document available to anyone interested that compares the performance of a real OV8 to the best case theoretical projections of performance of Paradyne's proposed CAP system. The data for the comparison are supplied via T1E1 contributions from GTE and Paradyne engineers. If you don't believe the document, the contribution numbers and the names of the guilty are given.

You can ftp the data from netcom.com ftp/pub/ma/macica or I can email it to you.

>> The comparisons I have seen are not "apples to apples."

I'd really like to see a RADSL vs. OV8 faceoff myself. When will the 7Mbps RADSL chips
be ready?


>>Most of the CAP vendors have refused trials that do not appear to be properly
>>structured.

What do you mean by this? What was wrong with the Bellcore test? Do you think the people on this thread believe this.

>>Note that over 90% of all FIELD trials (more valid than lab trials which can be easily
rigged) to date have been CAP modems. Moreover. they all perform as advertised
with REAL production quality chipsets.


At the time most of these modems were sent off to trial, did the customer have a choice. i.e. could they get large numbers of DMT modems? I think not. Did the CAP modems in BA's VOD trial perform all that well? From the BA news releases, looks like they are heading for a FTTC solution. Have yet to here any bad news about the DMT VOD trials over seas. Another trial in France just started last month using OV8s.


>> T1E1 is taking another look at what they did in the T1.413 standard...

You must be referring to the AdHoc committee. The T1E1 committee has been focusing on DMT for more than 4 yrs. DMT chips are here now and more sources will become available this quarter. CAPs cost, complexity, power argument is gone.

Later
Steve

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