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To: iandiareii who wrote (4236)4/17/1999 12:48:00 PM
From: Yaacov
   of 17770
 
Ian,

Ti ringrazio per la tua posta. Ogniuno fa quello che può per informare
il pubblico.

Da dove vieni ?

Tanti saluti,

Yaa


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To: Yaacov who wrote (4220)4/17/1999 12:55:00 PM
From: George Papadopoulos
   of 17770
 
RE: Greeks

> If it
wasn't becsue of NATO, the islands, and Thrace would
have gone to Turks, Macedonia would have gone to Bulgarians, and Athen
would have been presided by a Communist regime!

ROFL! Thank you Nato for giving half of Cyprus to the Turks in 1974. There is a UN Resolution for that, it's just too bad there isn't much oil around there or the invader is not a US strategic ally to help this one out. About the 2,000 Cypriots still missing who gives a crap right?

> Instead of helping NATO, are playing footsy with Milosovic.

Footsy? Come on, Greeks support the Serb people because they BELIEVE that bombing them to pieces is WRONG and this is another blatant aggression by the US once AGAIN!

> They have refused to help in any military missions and have condemned NATO
action against Serbs and have offically sown sympathy for Serbs!

YOu must realize that the Greek public opinion is overwhelmingly against Nato bombing Yugoslavia. The current Greek govt has to walk on a very fine line here but at the same time it will be suicidal for them to go along with the bombing. I am actually suprised they have not been more vocal against it.

> With such friends, who needs an enemy!

Again, the mentality of the Greek goes like this: "The govt must do what is RIGHT to help the Serbs resist naked aggression by the US...Remember Cyprus...We don't care about coming economic repercussions (which I am sure they are coming), this is all about DIGNITY!

This was my father's explanation when I tried to explain to him that the current Greek govt must go along with nato so the future economic prosperity is not compromised...and this was BEFORE the bombing!

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To: George Papadopoulos who wrote (4246)4/17/1999 1:33:00 PM
From: George Papadopoulos
   of 17770
 
I watched "Jamie" Shea today in his briefing do his daily spin routine...and, as he said about the civilian bombing, he does "not have any more information"?????Well, here is one explanation by a British reporter who visited the site...RECOMMENDED!


17 April, 1999
The Independent
independent.co.uk
By Robert Fisk


When you stand at the site of a massacre, two things happen. First, you wonder about the depths of the human spirit. And then you
ask yourself how many lies can be told about it. The highway of death between Prizren and Djakovica - on which the Serbs say Nato
slaughtered 74 Kosovo Albanian refugees in a series of bombing raids - is no different.

Only hours after I slipped on a dead man's torso near an old Turkish bridge, less than a day after I stood by the body of a young
and beautiful girl - her eyes gently staring at me between half-closed lids, the bottom half of her head bathed in blood - I
watched James Shea, Nato's spokesman, trying to explain yesterday why Nato still didn't know what had happened on Wednesday.



All those torn and mangled bodies I had just seen - the old man ripped in half and blasted into a tree at Gradis, the smouldering
skeleton with one bloody, still flesh-adhering foot over the back of a trailer at Terezick Most, the dead, naked man slouched over
the steering wheel of a burnt tractor - all, apparently, were a mystery to Nato. So perhaps The Independent can help clear up this
unhappy state of affairs with some evidence - damning perhaps, certainly important - from the scene.

But first a pause, to reflect on atrocities. The Serbs are "ethnically cleansing" Kosovo. It is a war crime. If Nato massacred the
74 Albanians, the Serbs have killed many more. On Thursday, I saw four buses in Kosovo packed with terrified Albanian women and
children and old men, black curtains at the windows of the buses in an attempt to hide their presence. And at a square in the
otherwise deserted town of Pozeranje, near Urosevac, I passed at least 200 pathetic Kosovo Albanians, exhausted, frightened,
carrying plastic bags of clothes and battered holdalls, the old women in scarves, the young women clutching children to their
bosoms, the old men wearing black berets; all were standing tightly together for protection, like animals.

They were waiting for another bus, I suppose - and, not for the first time these past three weeks, I thought of other scenes, in
Eastern Europe just over half a century ago. At Pozeranje, I was seeing these poor people - for a few seconds only, from a vehicle
window - at the very moment of their dispossession, on the very day of their "cleansing", within hours of their arrival among the
flotsam of humanity along the Serbian border 12 miles away It was a wickedness I saw, the very moment of evil. When I drove
through Pozeranje again yesterday, it was empty save for four horses running lose on the main road.

So why dwell on the 74 dead Kosovo Albanians whose remains have been left in such indignity along the Prizren-Djakovica road?
Because the Serbs wanted us to see them? Because Nato was already embarrassed by the Serb claims of their slaughter? Because it
"evens the balance" - it does not - between Serbia and its enemies?

No, I suspect that the road of death and its terrible corpses is a challenge not to Nato's propaganda but to its morality. Nato,
we are repeatedly told, represents "us", the good moral, decent people who oppose lies and murder. So Nato has a case to answer -
for all our sakes. And the evidence lies on that awful road with its eviscerated people and its bomb craters.

Nato "thinks" it bombed a tractor on a road north of Djakovica. Indeed, Nato's military spokesman would say yesterday only that is
was "possibly" a tractor. Mr Shea - or "Jamie" as he enjoins us to call him - says he is still trying to find out what happened to
the 74 refugees. Nato needs more time, he tells us, to assess what it bombed and did not bomb.

Well perhaps I can help Jamie to speed up his enquiries. Of the four air-strike locations, I have visited the first three - at
Velika Krusa, Gradis and Terzick Most - and they run consecutively from east to west along the Prizren-Djakovica road. At the
third, I came across four bomb craters. I saw - and in some cases collected - a number of bomb and missile parts. At Gradis, I
came across part of a missile circuit board, its congealed wiring attached to a plate which contains a manufacturer's code.

Yesterday's Independent carried some of this. But Nato will need the fullest possible information to trace this piece of ordnance
quickly. The full code (the brackets are empty on the original) reads as follows:

SCHEM 872110 ( ) 96214ASSY8721122 - MSN 63341 [remaining figures obscured by detonation damage]

It shouldn't take Nato armaments experts more than a few hours to find out where that code came from - indeed what aircraft
carried and fired that missile. Its pilot - if it was a Nato bomb - will then be able to explain why he fired it.

At Velika Krusa, I found the fusing of an aerial bomb next to a smashed trailer containing the belongings of 35 Albanian refugees,
four of whom - all women - were killed in this air strike. I also have in my possession what may be a swivel system to an aerial
bomb. It is one-inch square, very damaged (Xs stand for the illegible parts) - but carries the code: "X6214 - 837XNY".

At Gradis, I found a large bomb part, green in colour but with stencilled colour code in English, whose full code reads:

WING ASSEMBLY

96214ASSY

78-201872 872128

DATE OF MFG 3/78

Another similar bomb part contained the numbers:

96214ASSY

887760-4

At Gradis, too, part of what appeared to be a detonator contained a section of manufacturer's name:

- TER Co Inc

13250

Again, Nato intelligence authorities should be able to work out some of those codings within a few minutes. Another piece of a
bomb had the single word "BENDIX" stamped on the metal. Other bomb and missile fragments contained moving fin assembly parts. Most
of the shrapnel was so sharp it that it cut the hands of those who touched it. The corpses showed what happened when the bomb
parts shredded them alive. One of the bodies lying in a field at Terezicki Most - that of a man in his 40s - had the top of his
head cut cleanly off, along with his brain and eyes so that his face had turned into an actor's mask. A middle-aged woman in a
purple pullover and brightly flowered skirt with her eyes open and a pale waxen face, had had her neck cut open.

Now, maybe Nato will find that these bomb and missile assembly parts belonged to weapons sold to other governments. Perhaps they
will be able to claim that a Balkan nation was given the aerial bomb whose wing assembly number is recorded above. In which case,
maybe Nato will say that the Yugoslav air force - of which not a single aircraft has been seen in the air since the start of the
Nato bombardment - carried out this massacre of Albanian refugees.

Certainly, Yugoslav army officers at the bomb sites made no attempt to prevent photographers taking pictures of the larger pieces
(though they showed no interest in the codings and seemed unable to understand my interest). And I saw one photographer drag a
piece of bomb several metres and turn it over for a better photograph. But given the time available and the chaos on the road -
Nato air raids were going on within a mile of us as we examined the bomb sites - it is impossible to believe that the Serbs had
time to construct these terrible scenes.

At Gradis, there was evidence of strafing as well as aerial bombing. Huge troughs had been cut into the earth, each two feet in
length, separated by up to 10 feet and unevenly separated as if a drunken monster had lurched through the field and on to the
road. These appeared identical to the cannon fire marks I found at the scene of American A-10 "Tankbuster" strikes in the 1991
Gulf War. But there were no burnt-out tanks on the Prizren-Djakovica road; only tractors and trailers and an old milk-yellow van
turned inside out by the explosion which destroyed it.

Along miles of the same road were other tractors, some scorched, most abandoned, apparently in panic, at the side of the road. The
few Kosovo Albanians we found spoke of thousands on the road that day - 14 April - and it appears that they were moving in both
directions. Survivors have said they came from the border, were moved to Djakovica and then told by Serb forces to move to
Prizren. Most say they had no Serb escorts. I saw those awful buses with the black curtains moving in both directions near Prizren
on Thursday. "Ethnic cleansing" is not a precise art. Nor is fear. Undoubtedly some of the Kosovo Albanians on the road were
terrified of the aircraft which bombed them in four separate locations. The fourth attack took place at Meja on the other side of
Djakovica.

It wasn't difficult for me to imagine the terror on that road. While we were picking our way through the corpses of Terezicki
Most, Nato planes dropped bombs less than a mile away - cluster bombs from the sound of them - and a series of massive explosions
changed the air pressure around us. We watched the skies. From time to time, we could hear - but not see - Nato jets power-diving.
Columns of dark smoke billowed over the bright green fields.

But we found no military wreckage. Not a smashed rifle, not a piece of armour. There was a lot of glass on parts of the road - not
a commodity to find in large amounts on military vehicles. The only victims of these air strikes appeared to be civilians. At
Terezicki Most, I counted 13 corpses and other body parts. A missile had rammed a tractor, setting fire to its trailer and
incinerating all inside. In the Prizren hospital mortuary, six corpses lay on the concrete floor. There was a woman, breasts
exposed, on the right, a delicate child close to her with a bloodied face. A piece of paper with the number "1" written on it had
been pinned to the shroud half covering an unknown man. We had names for the rest: Fikrija Sulja, Imer Celja, Ferat Bajrami,
Persad Sanfjli and Nerdgivare Zecin.

Along the road, there were clothes and rags and broken cups and saucers beside the bomb sites and photograph albums and family
snapshots. I picked up photographs of a pretty young Kosovo Albanian woman with a lace blouse and curls and long black earrings,
of a smiling four-year old boy in a T-shirt standing on a sofa behind a vase of sunflowers, of the boy's parents and two other
brothers on the same sofa, of two old women in Muslim scarves and of a blood group certificate - Rhesus positive - for a woman
named Rama Resmije, dated 16 March 1993.

Did she live or die? Were the little boy and his parents and brothers torn apart in the air strikes on Wednesday? And what of the
pretty woman in the earrings? If they survived, they deserve to know why their family and friends died. If they were killed, we
deserve to know why. That these people were massacred in air strikes I do not doubt. I fear very much that they were slaughtered
by Nato. If so, why? Was this some terrible error about which Nato - after its attack on a passenger train last week - fears to
tell us? Or did some Nato pilots (and this massacre needed three or four planes) make an error and agree to cover it up? Or - most
awful of all - did a Nato pilot do something terrible, inexplicable, two days ago and then lie about it?

Nato, I suspect, can tell us. And those of us who walked among the innocent dead on the road from Prizren to Djakovica this week
are waiting to hear Jamie tell the truth.




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To: D. Long who wrote (4217)4/17/1999 1:49:00 PM
From: robnhood
   of 17770
 
D,,, saw a little program on tv the other night---the people who were there when the bomb hit are still paying the price in many sad ways---for them the war is still on----

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To: robnhood who wrote (4248)4/17/1999 2:13:00 PM
From: D. Long
   of 17770
 
<<D,,, saw a little program on tv the other night---the people who were there when the bomb hit are still paying the price in many sad ways---for them the war is still on---->>

At least there is still are *Japanese.* An invasion of the home islands would have destroyed an entire generation of Japanese men. Ever heard of Japanese honor? No doubt every man woman and child would have commited sepaku rather than have the Emperor a prisoner in a besieged Tokyo. The lives that were saved far outweigh the costs, for America and Japan. How many men and women would not exist today if that offensive would have been carried out? Two generations, rrman, millions of people, would never have been born. If you add that cost to the equation, the cost of *not* having used the bomb would have been outrageously criminal. Yes, it is sad that the survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are still paying for that awful time. But the alternative would have been far worse.

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To: BillCh who wrote (3440)4/17/1999 2:17:00 PM
From: BillCh
   of 17770
 
NATO50 stamp
stampsonline.com

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To: George Papadopoulos who wrote (4246)4/17/1999 2:28:00 PM
From: Yaacov
   of 17770
 
Mr. Papadopoulos,

Your post raised very interesting points. With all due respect to your
father, that I am sure is a great patriot and man of culture, I can't
wholly agree with you.

To begin with, Cypress was never part of a Greek Republic! It was part of Roman empire, passed on to Byzentines, and then was ruled for centuries by Ottoman Turks. It was occupied by British and then was given independence! This is 2000 years history in three modest lines!

"Enossis" was not the Cypress Turkish idea, it was imported by the
military Government in Athen. The Greeks killed a few thousand Turks
and Rauf Denktash militia killed a few thousand Greeks. Both side committed genocide against their neighoburs. Greeks were about to send troops to Cypress to help Greeks but turks were faster
Turks occupied half a Cypress and regretfully, we have an stale-mate
Nobody is a victim in Cypress! Neither Turks, nor Greeks! You may not,
but I have seen the doumnetry footage of the atrocities committed by
both side! Both sides are quilty of ethnic cleansing and genocide!


Now lets get this facts streight. Do you deny that after the German
pulled out of Greece in 1945, if it wasn't becasue of British and American help, Greece would have fallen to the Communist insurgents??

Do you deny that if it wasn't because of the US and NATO protection,
your beloved Greece would have fallen prey to Turks in the East, Bugarians, and Slavs in the North and Anver Hoxa Albanians in the West! Turks would have occupied Comotini and the islands would have followed-up! As you know, Turks are bad tourists, once they would have taken the Islands, they would have stayed forever! So, Mr. Papadopoulos, if it wan't becasue of NATO and USA where the Greece would have been! After 50 years of being protected, you have the courage to tell me that Greek people are against the NATO and US boming of Serbia, becasue you share the same Christian ritual and alphabet!! Your country enjoyed the protection of NATO and now, you send emisseries to Belgrade and refuse to give assistnace to your NATO alies?? If Greeks are honorable people that I am sure they are, they should leave NATO.
and equally the EC and go their own way! What is the sense of being
meember of NATO and EC if at it breaks rank the first time the
there is a crisis!!

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To: Yaacov who wrote (4251)4/17/1999 2:36:00 PM
From: D. Long
   of 17770
 
<<After 50 years of being protected, you have the courage to tell me that Greek people are against the NATO and US boming of Serbia, becasue you share the same Christian ritual and alphabet!! Your country enjoyed the protection of NATO and now, you send emisseries to Belgrade and refuse to give assistnace to your NATO alies?? If Greeks are honorable people that I am sure they are, they should leave NATO.
and equally the EC and go their own way! What is the sense of being
meember of NATO and EC if at it breaks rank the first time the
there is a crisis!!>>

In political philosophy, this is called the problem of the free-rider...

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To: Patrick E.McDaniel who wrote (1)4/17/1999 2:38:00 PM
From: Alan Whirlwind
   of 17770
 
Patrick,

It probably does seem odd that so many otherwise hawks are down on this Balkan intervention. Here are some reasons that might help others understand this viewpoint.

1. The Serbs took Nazi bayonets in WWII to safeguard our downed fliers. In one case villagers watched the Germans burn their homes, some with people inside, and yet refused to turn over US fliers to the Axis. 500 of these fliers published a letter of solidarity with the Serbian people after Clinton started the bombing. Bombing these people indiscriminantly (trains, bus stations, playgrounds, etc) is a sorry way to pay them back.

2. This is a European problem. Why don't they take care of their own dirty business? The powers over there have plenty of arms to handle Milosevic.

3. We did not bomb when the Croates forced out the Serbs (500,000). In some cases Serbs were lined up and shot. Milosevic being an aggressor (if one can even sort this whole situation out and pigeonhole to this extent) does not excuse murder and "ethnic cleansing" on the part of Croatia.

4. Our bombs are killing hundreds of civilians and have actually made the refugee problem worse. To deny this is to accede to the desperate sort of propaganda now trying to keep this thing going.

5. There is no end in sight. The Serbs have hundreds of miles of tunnels honeycombing their mountains, some A-bomb proof, well stocked with arms and provisions, courtesy Tito who feared attack from both East and West. Milosevic could disband 2/3 of his army to plainclothes and send the rest to the mountains. Both groups could fight guerrilla war Central American style, only with better hardware to do it with. Thus even occupying the country would have a continuing high cost.

6. I agree that someone should start stopping these things at some point. But we are interfering in the internal affairs of another country. Should Europe have shelled and destroyed all of our ports during the Trail of Tears or when Sherman was marching to the sea? A better approach would have been to send diplomats from all over the world to Serbia to negotiate. Remember, the Serbs were willing to sign the Rambouillet Accords with the stipulation that no NATO troops be stationed on their soil. This was not asking too much and if they failed to live up to the signing, we always could have bombed later if we found it so necessary.

7. One might find the whole exercise suspect. The same yuppie liberals who coddled the Soviets while they killed a million Afghans and sent 5 million refugees fleeing the country, (1979 to 1989) and later allowed 1-2 million Ruwandans to die in mass murders that a few pistol shots could have stopped now want to work everyone up about Kosovo. I don't trust their motives given such inconsistancies.

8. Clinton bragged about his big tax surplus, which was really a Social Security trust fund surplus (of 10 billion) and now wants 9 billion to finance the war. Some of this money will come from funds which otherwise would have been set aside to help victims of Hurricane Mitch who still face disease and death from lack of clean water. Peter is being robbed to pay Paul.

9. Sure, Serbia did revoke the autonomy in the region of Kosovo, but it was in reaction to the smaller Serb population being harrassed and persecuted there. All parties involved here have soiled hands. And now my tax money is used to soil mine.

10. I'm not saying opinions favoring the present involvement aren't valid and humanitarian. I just don't trust anyone running this show anymore. --Alan

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To: Machaon who wrote (4017)4/17/1999 2:56:00 PM
From: capitalistbeatnik
   of 17770
 
Yes, Robert, because it's not genocide, I feel happy about the suffering of the innocent Kosovars. You got me. There you have it. I really enjoy seeing people suffer. In fact, I tape CNN and play tapes of the refugee camps over and over while I sip Cadillac margaritas and laugh at the lack of fashion sense of the Kosovars. There, you outed me as a sadist. Feel better? Now you can go around telling people you are morally superior. In your black and white childlike world of good and evil, saying that the expulsion and killing of the Kosovars is not genocide is tantamount to endorsing it, so rather than argue with you rationally, I'll just allow you the delusional pleasure of self satisfaction.

To call this genocide is to minimize what happened in Cambodia and Auschwitz. This is just the ugliness of a civil war, pure and simple. And according to your loose definition what happened at Waco is also genocide.

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