Strategies & Market Trends | Gorilla and King Portfolio Candidates


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To: Pirah Naman who wrote (48923)11/14/2001 9:09:32 PM
From: Wyätt Gwyön   of 54800
 
It is an analytic method for selecting business winners in a certain sector. Can you cite any evidence that it fails in this regard; i.e., can you name a situation where the method identified a business winner and yet one of that company's competitors actually became the business

as far as i can see, GG is marketed as a method to get rich by investing. the inside jacket cover tells you how you could've made millions of this stock and that. however, i agree that it is not a very good method for finding investments since it ignores valuation issues.

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To: Wyätt Gwyön who wrote (48912)11/14/2001 9:24:38 PM
From: EnricoPalazzo   of 54800
 
yep, and ten thousand also-rans for each of these "oh i recognized him"s.

With your fondness for academic finance, you may have heard this joke:

A finance professor is walking down the street with a student. In front of them is a $20 bill. The student says, "look, professor, $20!" As the student begins to lean down to pick it up, the professor says, "Don't bother. If it was really a $20 bill, some one else would have already taken it".

OK, so it's a bad joke, but you get the point.

please show me the statistically significant results from academic studies showing that people can identify underpriced stocks in advance in today's market according to gorilla game theory and make massive profits on them.

Demanding impossible data from an opponent is an old debater's trick, Mucho.

It's not really possible to prove that buying MSFT in the early nineties was anything but lucky. The fact that the principles espoused in TRFM would have led us to buy MSFT & INTC around 1990, and CSCO shortly thereafter is of dubious importance, given that TRFM was inspired by these companies. We can hardly look to these companies for validation of its theories.

Now I personally believe, as with many others on this thread, that TRFM has tended to overstate the greatness of Gorillas, notably the "always undervalued" bit, but also in terms of their invincibility in the market. While the Gorilla Game does a good job of laying out the basics of high-tech markets, and why proprietary control of an open architecture is so very valuable, it's important to remember that things can and do go wrong for even the greatest of companies. Our stocks need all the advantages that they can get--proprietary control of an open architecture, yes, but also great management, strong balance sheet, powerful brand, friendly regulators, etc.

So the point is, TRFM isn't a simple formula for finding "the next microsoft", or cisco, or whatever. It's very possible that we will never see a company grow as rapidly as CSCO did in the 90's. What TRFM does do, however, is basically say, look:

1) Competitive advantage matters.
2) Proprietary control of an open architecture is a strong source of competitive advantage.

The rest is details. People on this thread tend to believe in these principles, not just because they worked for MSFT, INTC, CSCO, etc, but because they make sense, intuitively. We tend to believe that if we can identify companies that have (or, depending on the investor, are apt to gain) proprietary control of an open architecture, those companies will have a competitive advantage over their competitors. Depending on several other factors, these companies may be good candidates for investment. There will be some clunkers in there (and also some false-positives), but I've a hunch that several of the best-performing companies of the next decade will come from those that we're discussing.

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To: techreports who wrote (48919)11/14/2001 9:31:58 PM
From: EnricoPalazzo   of 54800
 
Intel has said that if rdram ever becomes reasonable in price compared to ddr/sdram then they'd be more interested in rdram..

Intel said that? Wow, that's the worst news I've heard for RMBS yet. I disinvested a bit back (way too late... close to the bottom), so I haven't really followed them. But if Intel has come out and said that they'll push RDRAM if it becomes cost-competitive w/ DDR, that's almost game over for RMBS.

The RMBS bull argument has always been, "Intel will push RMBS like nobody's business. This will drive the price down, and spur adoption." Without Intel's firm support, I can't see RDRAM going anywhere.

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To: Uncle Frank who started this subject11/14/2001 9:49:31 PM
From: Eric L   of 54800
 
James J. Cramer on market share (leaders) - with a gorilla and king mention.

I know, I know, your favorite and mine. <g>

... but an interesting point or two and some good wordsmithing in the article.

Take Shares Now in the Share-Takers


thestreet 

excerpt:

I am seeing Citigroup take share in banking. Kraft is taking share in food. Cisco is taking share in networking. Nokia is taking share in cell phones. AOL Time Warner is solidifying share online and in magazines snip. Wal-Mart, Lowe's, BestBuy and Target are taking share in retailing. And, last but not least, General Motors has decided to take share in autos. These share-takers are not thinking about now but rather what will happen two or three years from now. They know disarray won't last forever. They all remember how expensive it got to build share just two and three years ago, so they don't want to wait until it gets expensive again. It is difficult to reward share-takers with higher prices right now. The process of taking share often requires more spending than Wall Street would like.

- Eric -

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To: Eric L who wrote (48929)11/14/2001 10:04:20 PM
From: Eric L   of 54800
 
re: Techs? Wherefore art thou?

Arne Alsin writes in TheStreet.com

First, a word of warning: Your favorite stock probably will not make my list (Top-10 Turnaround Candidates for 2002). Like last year's candidates, this year's won't include any tech or big-cap stocks. All of the fallen stars from the last cycle, such as Cisco, Oracle, Intel and Sun have failed to make the list again.

SSB just sent me a FREE list of "Great American Companies", with one gorilla and two techs on it:

AOL Time Warner
Exxon-Mobil
Johnson & Johnson
Microsoft
Phillip Morris
American International Group
General Electric
International Business Machines
Pfizer
Wal-Mart

So What Is a Great American Company (you ask)?

Although Great American Companies may be defined in many ways, we believe the following points are integral parts of the definition. A Great American Company must:

- Be well managed;
- Have the ability to deliver high-quality goods or services to customers;
- Be a recognized world leader in its product areas
- Be at the forefront of new product or technological advances
- Have demonstrated the ability to generate positive returns on investment over an extended period of time.


Not a bad checkist to lay over a G&K tech company analyses.

- Eric -

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To: EnricoPalazzo who wrote (48927)11/14/2001 10:05:40 PM
From: Wyätt Gwyön   of 54800
 
hi ardethan,

you may have heard this joke:

aye, that's really a jab at Efficient Market Theory, which maintains that the market is so efficient one cannot beat it (very much against GG principles). in the extreme version of EMT, the position is that NO information, even inside information, is valuable because the market has
already priced it in....er...ya mean even though the market doesn't know the information? yep, that's the extreme version, which by logical extension means you couldn't find free money in the street, because the all-seeing market would've done away with it.

there are less extreme versions of EMT (Malkiel provides an overview)--e.g., recognizing that stuff like insider info could be valuable info--but indexing in general is going to rely on EMT at some level.

it is interesting that indexing has a lot of fans in academia, and few on the Street. this is because the Street wants to manage your money for you, or sell you information, so the idea that the information is already to a large part priced in is anathema. in contrast, academics, whatever their faults may be, are not trying to sign me up for a wrap account with a fat fee.

one of the more interesting discoveries of indexing in the real world is that costs matter, not just a little bit, but A LOT. compared to passive index managers, active managers are going to have higher costs ranging from 100 basis points (for a large cap index like the S&P500) to as many as 900 basis points (for less liquid markets like small caps and small overseas markets) according to Bogle. (this stands in contrast to the tiresome cliche about indexing working for large caps but not for less liquid markets.)

the thing is, these costs are yearly, so if you have a 25-year horizon, 300 or so basis points (3%) compounds into a very large number. the idea that large numbers of active managers can consistently have alphas exceeding this hurdle, or that an investor could identify such managers in advance, defies credulity in my opinion. and also: alpha always absconds.

I personally believe, as with many others on this thread, that TRFM has tended to overstate the greatness of Gorillas, notably the "always undervalued" bit, but also in terms of their invincibility in the market

you make a number of good points about GG, most of which i agree with. i suppose if there can be different versions of EMT, ranging from extreme to "nuanced", there can likewise be different degrees of belief in GG. makes sense to me, and obviously GG has evolved in this forum beyond the original book content.

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To: Wyätt Gwyön who wrote (48925)11/14/2001 11:06:50 PM
From: Pirah Naman   of 54800
 
you might want to learn a bit more about indexing. and F&F.

You might want to check your assumptions.

You asked for academic, statistically significant studies.

you said they were impossible, which would not be the case if gorilla gaming can be said empirically to work.


You might also want to learn about the requirements for statistically valid studies.

This is not the thread for debating about indexing and academic studies.

- Pirah

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To: Eric L who wrote (48922)11/14/2001 11:25:25 PM
From: Mike Buckley   of 54800
 
Eric,

Qualcomm has NO architectural control of the WCDMA air interface, whatsoever ... or the other air interfaces that are part of UMTS, or UMTS.

Does any company have that control? The reason I ask is because I believe the non-cdmaOne/CDMA2000 sectors are royalty games. If I'm right, neither Qualcomm nor any company could be the chimp you feel Qualcomm is.

--Mike Buckley

P. S. Hah! I surprised Paul by changing my standard insert. Actually, I'm just reviving an old one that I stopped harping about because nobody ever paid any attention to it. :)

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To: Pirah Naman who wrote (48932)11/14/2001 11:25:49 PM
From: Wyätt Gwyön   of 54800
 
This is not the thread for debating about indexing and academic studies.

whatever, you shouldn't have brought it up then.

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To: Wyätt Gwyön who wrote (48931)11/14/2001 11:27:48 PM
From: EnricoPalazzo   of 54800
 
It is interesting that indexing has a lot of fans in academia, and few on the Street. this is because the Street wants to manage your money for you, or sell you information, so the idea that the information is already to a large part priced in is anathema. in contrast, academics, whatever their faults may be, are not trying to sign me up for a wrap account with a fat fee.

That's, um, one interpretation. Another interpretation is that academics are obsessed with a theory that has been repudiated in a variety of ways. The theory says, more or less: my former classmates who went to Wall Street and mades tons of money are full of crap. I'm not jealous; I'm smarter than them. You say that some investors (like Warren Buffett) have proven successful far beyond what is statistically reasonable given an efficient market? Oh yeah, well, um... mumble mumble mumble.

I have a decent amount of exposure to academic finance; enough to think very little of most practitioners, and much less of the theory. The fact that beta as a proxy for risk and a predictor of return is still widely accepted in academic finance circles should tell you all you need to know. Hell, marxism has fallen out of favor more quickly.

Sorry, you touched a sore point ;)

ardethan@recoveringecmajor.edu

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