Technology Stocks | Internet Analysis - Discussion


Previous 10 | Next 10 
To: dpk who wrote (241)3/29/1999 7:14:00 AM
From: Chuzzlewit   of 419
 
dpk, first, let me say that I am far from expert in the field of e-commerce. My posts were simply an attempt to give some concrete form to thoughts I have had over past year or so. I am hoping for that epiphany that will allow me to say "I understand". So far it eludes me.

You said However, there are a couple of considerations that may justify the crazy economics. First, some of these companies claim that they do not mind losing a little bit of money on each retail transaction in the early stage of the game because they are trying to build net brands. And second, the advertising revenue they are/will be able to generate more than offsets the small loss on each etail transaction. Clearly, the veracity of such claims is difficult to confirm, as only time will tell whether net brands are defensible and what the value of brand equity is in the net world. And as you mentioned even Amazon.com is not yet profitable despite being in business for a relatively long time in net-years.

I think we need to distinguish cases. Portals are clearly different from e-tailers. e-tailers may be able to generate a certain amount of cash through advertising, but they must carefully balance rewards with risk. For example, when it was discovered that Amazon was highlighting certain books because it was receiving payment from the publishers it quickly abandoned the practice for fear of losing credibility. I think there is also the possibility of saturating your site with so much extraneous advertising that focus is lost.

Analyst Alan Braverman seems to think that branding is important in cyberspace. I think he is only partially correct, because I don't think this effort at branding is lasting in the same sense that we think of famous brand identities such as Kleenex, Scotch Tape or Frigidaire. Do consumers really care at which store they cybershop? Furthermore, as traffic on the internet grows, so will the cost of advertising. So while Braverman talks about scalability he seems to ignore the fact that scalability implies variable costs rather than fixed costs. In other words, there are few economies of scale to be had. One key financial driver for the e-tailer is the substitution of variable costs (for example servers and web content) for fixed costs (for example leasehold improvements and rent).

Braverman makes an argument I find particularly odd. He claims that Amazon's new 300,000 square foot distribution center will lower the cost of product by getting popular items direct from the source, and not through distributors. If Braverman is correct it would seem to me that Amazon is abandoning one of the leitmotifs of cyberspace: abhorrance of inventory. And if that is true, then their cash flow will be constrained by the necessity of having to carry significantly more inventory.

TTFN,
CTC



Share Recommend | Keep | Reply | Mark as Last Read

To: Chuzzlewit who wrote (239)3/29/1999 12:03:00 PM
From: Vendit™   of 419
 
Can you imagine that there is a mature company (meaning that growth will be about equal to the population growth) with the market capitalization of AOL. What cash flow do you think will be required to support that market capitalization? How will AOL get there from here, and how long will it take?

I take your point to be that the big Internet stocks are grossly over valued if they were presently mature companies and I would agree. Fortunately I see the sector growing into the early 2000's. It could well be that a company like AOL won't fully saturate the market until around 2005 or beyond. Without a doubt the sub $500 computer will help the growth of ISP's along.

e4me.com 

Vendit

Share Recommend | Keep | Reply | Mark as Last Read | Read Replies (1)

To: Vendit™ who wrote (246)3/29/1999 12:28:00 PM
From: Chuzzlewit   of 419
 
I take your point to be that the big Internet stocks are grossly over valued if they were presently mature companies

Actually, I was asking the reverse question. How big, in terms of free cash flow or any other suitable parameter, would these companies need to be to support their present valuation if they were mature. For this purpose I define maturity as a company that grows no faster than the general population. I would think that a multiple of roughly 10x free cash flow might be appropriate. So a company like AOL with a market capitalization of roughly 125BB would need to be able to generate around $12BB annually to support it's current valuation.

How long do you think it will take AOL to throw off that kind of cash, or do you think it will never be able to do that?

The corollary is this: given AOL's current business plan, at maturity how big do you think AOL will be?

TTFN,
CTC

Share Recommend | Keep | Reply | Mark as Last Read | Read Replies (1)

To: Chuzzlewit who wrote (247)3/29/1999 12:52:00 PM
From: Vendit™   of 419
 
How long do you think it will take AOL to throw off that kind of cash, or do you think it will never be able to do that?

The corollary is this: given AOL's current business plan, at maturity how big do you think AOL will be?


Chuzzzlewit any answer that I were to give you to those questions would wild speculation on my part. If you want to know if I think AOL
can generate 12BB in annual revenue my answer is yes.

As far as how big will AOL be I honestly don't see any end to the growth anytime soon. The world is a large place with a huge pile of cash and AOL will get it's fair share. The technologies will soon be available that will allow wireless Internet access. This will allow rapid service deployment in the unwired 3rd world countries.

Speculating on how big will AOL get to me is a lot like trying to envision the edge of the universe.

Sorry for the dramatics and I wish you well. I also wish you luck in finding the correct answers to your questions regarding this sector.
It is a mind bender.

Vendit

Share Recommend | Keep | Reply | Mark as Last Read | Read Replies (1)

To: Vendit™ who wrote (248)3/29/1999 1:06:00 PM
From: Chuzzlewit   of 419
 
Vendit, the $12BB is not revenue -- it's free cash flow. As a rough approximation, last year's 10-K had operating cash flow (excluding changes in balance sheet items) of around $266MM. AOL is a solid company, there is no doubt about it. I am simply trying to wiggle in on the question of valuation. Let's assume that my numbers are correct for the moment. And let's assume further that AOL is able to grow its cash flow at 50% per annum for the foreseeable future. That implies that AOL would need to grow at 50% pa for the next 9 or so years to justify today's stock price 9 years from now assuming the current business model.

TTFN,
CTC

Share Recommend | Keep | Reply | Mark as Last Read | Read Replies (1)

To: Chuzzlewit who wrote (249)3/29/1999 1:30:00 PM
From: Vendit™   of 419
 
Your point is well taken.

For what it's worth.....AOL just broke it's upper price resistance and will head higher.

As you know my talents aren't in fundamental analysis. I really am only concerned with what I think is going to happen to company X's stock price 1 day in advance or even a few weeks in advance. My methods for some reason tend to uncover undisclosed fundamentals such as better then expected earnings or just the reverse and will usually tip me off several days in advance.

What you do and what I do really compliment each other when used in unison. I will leave what you do to experts like yourself. I feel more comfortable in the waters that I am already familar with.

10,000 is likely today!

Vendit

Share Recommend | Keep | Reply | Mark as Last Read

To: jbn3 who wrote (227)3/29/1999 3:05:00 PM
From: Chuzzlewit   of 419
 
Good afternoon Bachman,

I have just completed a statistical analysis of AMZN and have discovered something truly astounding. Over the past three years (this is the limited data set I used) the costs behave as if they are all variable (i. e. no fixed component)! Using simple linear regression I get the following coefficients which were the result of a trend-line forced through a 0 intercept because the true intercept would have been negative:

Marketing and sales expense = 22.2% of sales
Product development = 7.8% of sales
G & A = 2.8%

Therefore, on an EBITDA basis, overhead costs total 32.8%, and Cost of sales totals 78.1% 110.9% of sales. This implies, of course, that breakeven is impossible, and that losses will widen with increasing sales. But even if we make the simplifying assumption that 50% of overhead cash costs are fixed ($97,815), the variable portion is 16%, and total variable costs would be 94.1%. The implication is that sales would need to rise to $3,315.7MM just to break-even. If the company were able to shave 10% off of its cost of sales it would still need to more than double its sales just to break even.

How does an analyst put out a buy rating on this stock?

TTFN,
CTC

Share Recommend | Keep | Reply | Mark as Last Read | Read Replies (3)

To: Chuzzlewit who wrote (251)3/29/1999 5:47:00 PM
From: jbn3   of 419
 
re How does an analyst put out a buy rating on this stock?

Maybe his mathematics education didn't include signed numbers?

jbn3

Share Recommend | Keep | Reply | Mark as Last Read | Read Replies (1)

To: Chuzzlewit who wrote (251)3/29/1999 6:01:00 PM
From: investz   of 419
 
Up Up and away again for the internet sector.
Way waste taste get on the internet stocks.
MW_Online
geocities.com 
Daytrading is good everything is good now
for this market.

Share Recommend | Keep | Reply | Mark as Last Read

To: jbn3 who wrote (252)3/29/1999 6:29:00 PM
From: Chuzzlewit   of 419
 
Bachman, you laugh, but it almost appears this way. I didn't have any basis for inclusion of AMZN's auction site in my analysis -- I have no idea at this point what they will do to the numbers, but here is a really odd methodology that Everen uses to value AMZN. They forecast earnings of $1.77 per share for 2003 and assume a forward P/E of 80 (on what basis I don't know), yielding a price in 2002 of $141.60. They then discount this price back to the present using an opportunity cost of 5.15% plus a risk factor of 0.5%!!!! so you calculate this stuff out and voila! a valuation of $120/share 6 months hence. But that would mean that if the target price were achieved the rate of return to the investor starting 6 months from now through the end of 2002 would be 5.65%. Who in his right mind would invest in a stock like AMZN with a potential return limited to 5.65%? These guys also have a buy rating. Oh, and they have an 18 month price target of $127!

Web retailing is fraught with risk, not the least of which is the fact that it is so new that the unknowns are monumental. Furthermore, barriers to entry are either minimal or non-existent, and branding may be an illusion. So even if I were to accept the $1.77 estimate, I'd be slapping a 30% or so total discount rate on this thing. That gives me a target price of $63.72 assuming their numbers. But the stuff I've generated (excluding the effect of the auction) yields only losses.

I give up. Maybe there's something in the paper they use that makes them all hallucinate, or maybe this is surrealist living art. Or maybe I'm just out of step. Maybe this makes sense if you're 25 years old, just out of B school and never saw a fad before.

TTFN,
CTC

Share Recommend | Keep | Reply | Mark as Last Read | Read Replies (1)
Previous 10 | Next 10 

Copyright © 1995-2013 Knight Sac Media. All rights reserved.