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To: TimF who wrote (8862)5/7/2012 2:20:04 PM
From: SocratesJohnson   of 9208
 
Nonsense. You ignore a huge chunk of the history of philosophical thought and debate. Yes none of that is evidence, but your not talking about evidence now, your talking about reason.
I'm not ignoring the history of philosophical thought and debate. I've done a considerable amount of reading on the matter.....Guess what......????....There is no evidence.

Guess what else.....?????......Reason is on my side here.

I

ts never been totally free, but various markets have been highly free, and the more free they are, all else being equal (or of course all else being better), the more efficiently they produce wealth.

Actually markets that are extremely un-free have, in fact, produced huge amounts of wealth.

Freedom hasn't been shown to breed wealth......It works the other way around.

The more government controls the market, the more those with political influence will oppress, and the more those with wealth will seek to gain political influence.
The more anybody controls the market, the more those with influence will oppress, and the more those with wealth will gain political influence.

People with wealth have tend to have more influence......You can take that to the bank!

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To: TimF who wrote (8863)5/7/2012 2:23:40 PM
From: SocratesJohnson   of 9208
 
No you can have rights, and have those rights be violated.
That happens frequently.

The fact remains though that a right is something that, by definition, others need to respect in order for it to be a right.

Equal rights, The right to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to do as one sees fit.....

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To: SocratesJohnson who wrote (8866)5/7/2012 2:48:49 PM
From: TimF2 Recommendations   of 9208
 
No your reasoning is not sound.

If one asserts X exists, then reasonably someone else could ask for evidence or be skeptical. But skepticism is not the same as belief in X's non-existence. If one wants to positively assert the absence of X, then they would have as much burden of proof as someone arguing for X. You aren't just saying "I don't know about the idea natural rights, no one has shown me any proof", your saying "natural rights don't exist". For things issues where there isn't any reason to expect that either presence or absence would lead evidence, only the agnostic position can reasonably impose serious burdens of proof on those that disagree.

Plato pointed out that we have an innate idea of equality by pointing out that even though there aren't two sticks that are perfectly equal we can imagine that they exist......That's pretty good evidence for an innate concept of equality.

Its argument not evidence. Most (and probably for very strict definitions of proof, and non-expansive definitions of philosophy, all) philisophical ideas only get backed up by argument, not by any sort of concrete evidence. That's also the case of a number of non-philosophical points, about which evidence is limited.
"For example - No one can provide any actual evidence of civilizations, (or even the existence of life) in the Andromeda galaxy."

That's a bad analogy. We haven't looked for life there. Had we gone to the Andromeda galaxy and visited all of the likely planets and found no life, that would be evidence for a lack of life there.
Its an almost perfect analogy. We have no evidence, but we have reason to believe there is life, and probably even civilizations there. That issue, like the idea of natural rights, is an area where we have no actual evidence, or current or reasonably foreseeable ability to get evidence. You can (and have) postulated a theoretical way evidence could be obtained, but that way is impossible at this time, and may never be possible. And even should it become possible, the salient point here is that at this time we have no evidence.

If I said that there is an invisible unicorn in my garage you'd assume that there is one?
Invisible unicorns would be a physical thing. We have extensive evidence that animals tend not to be invisible and more generally tend to leave evidence. We have knowledge understanding that if the only change made to an animal would be to make it invisible, that it would still leave evidence (it would eat, eliminate waste, make noise, move other objects, leave footprints, etc.) If your arguing that there is an invisible unicorn in your garage, and I actually cared to make the effort to check (and knew where you lived, and was invited to check etc.) I would ask you to present the evidence that we have good reason to expect (unlike with philosophical concepts, or life in another galaxy given our current knowledge and ability, both of which would be cases where we have no reason to expect evidence). If you could present it, and it was solid, and other people noticed it, and tests where done to show it wasn't fake, then at some point I probably would believe that an invisible unicorn existed in your garage.

But the standard of evidence would be high, because such a thing (unlike either natural rights or life in other galaxies) goes against all human experience.

If you couldn't present any evidence, but argued that its an invisible unicorn that doesn't make a sound because its inaudible, and doesn't leave evidence of having eaten food or eliminating waste because it doesn't need to eat, and doesn't knock things over or get noticed when we feel around for it, because it is small, quick, smart, shy, and careful, and doesn't leave foot prints (even if say you drop paint or powder all over the floor) because it floats above the ground (and does so without needing to direct any powerful air currents downwards) etc. then you are making a far more extreme claim, that goes even further against all human experience and to a great degree against current scientific knowledge, so the burden of proof on you would be even higher, even though it would be harder to get. But still you could reasonable say that I had not proven that there is no invisible unicorn in your garage I would merely have shown that it being there would imply that much of human experience and scientific knowledge is false, at least in the rare corner case of your unicorn. Which would be a powerful argument against the idea of a unicorn in your garage, but would not be proof.

But neither human rights, nor extra-galactic life or civilization, contradicts human experience or scientific knowledge. If we are to demand evidence to have any opinion the only opinion reasonably left is to be agnostic on both issues (and many others). If you don't think that evidence need to exist in order to have opinions, when the question is one where evidence would be unlikely to exist, then you reasonably can have either opinion.

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To: SocratesJohnson who wrote (8867)5/7/2012 2:58:56 PM
From: TimF1 Recommendation   of 9208
 
I'm not ignoring the history of philosophical thought and debate. I've done a considerable amount of reading on the matter.....Guess what......????....There is no evidence.
Again your conflating reason and evidence, and just after, and in response to, a post calling you on doing so.

I agree that there is no evidence, or at least no solid evidence that I have encountered. That is a very different point than the statement in question, where you said "There is no valid reasoning that points to the existence of natural rights."
Actually markets that are extremely un-free have, in fact, produced huge amounts of wealth.
Free markets have produced more, and some of the most unfree markets that are large and rapidly growing (for example India and China) are perfect examples of this. As they have become more free (India dropping the "liscence Raj, China opening up their economy to allow private or quasi-private ownership and profit), their economies have prospered to a much greater extent than they did before. Another laboratory of this is Korea. The North was richer than the South at the time of the split. Now North Korea plunges in to darkness each night (see for example bigthink.com  ) while the South in a typical year grows by more than the whole GDP of the North, and South Koreans are about three inches taller on the average then the North Koreans do to the poverty and malnutrition in the north (even after massive aid from the south and from China, and sometimes the US and others).
The more anybody controls the market
The more the state gets involved in the market, the more likely it is to be controlled, either by the state itself, or by the big players in the market who manipulate the government to their advantage, to control the market. The vast majority of solid monopolies are granted by or protected by the government. And private sector monopolies (or near monopolies depending on how strictly you define that word), while they do exist, still often have to be somewhat responsive to consumer demand to maintain their monopoly or near monopoly status, unlike monopolies protected by the government (or the government itself which is the biggest monopoly). One of the most known monopolies was Standard Oil. It dominated the oil business for years before it broke up (even if its dominance was already eroding before it broke up, a pattern that isn't rare in government anti-monopoly cases), but only maintained that position by continuing to drive its prices down.

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To: SocratesJohnson who wrote (8868)5/7/2012 3:04:06 PM
From: TimF   of 9208
 
That happens frequently.

The fact remains though that a right is something that, by definition, others need to respect in order for it to be a right.


If that happens frequently" applies to "rights are violated", then you contradict yourself. If the right doesn't exist unless others respect it then it can not be violated.

Well I suppose you might mean that the A's right of B, exists if C respects B, but gets violated when D doesn't respect B, but that doesn't seem to be a very interesting or useful formulation. Also its one I'd disagree with to the extent it implies that the right would cease to exist if C stopped respecting it (and no one else started to).

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From: TimF5/7/2012 8:54:26 PM
   of 9208
 
"...if you want to reform, a better way to do it is to offer superior alternatives rather than simply banning existing practices or removing alternatives. You don't like sweatshops? Great, start a factory of your own and pay what you think is a fair wage. Don't petition state-sponsored goons to shut down people's livelihoods with axes and water cannons. You don't think coffee supply chains benefit farmers? Okay, find out exactly how and why the supply chains work. Feel-good "fair" trade beans might not help them any more. Don't presume that just because you see exchange that is ostensibly non-euvoluntary that you can help people through coercion..."

- Samuel Wilson

euvoluntaryexchange.blogspot.com 

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To: TimF who wrote (8869)5/8/2012 7:20:09 AM
From: SocratesJohnson   of 9208
 
No your reasoning is not sound.
Of course it is. If one looks for evidence that something exists and finds none, that is evidence that it doesn't exist.

If I look for God manifested as a cloud in my garage and find no cloud, that is evidence that God isn't manifested as a cloud in my garage.

.
But still you could reasonable say that I had not proven that there is no invisible unicorn in your garage I would merely have shown that it being there would imply that much of human experience and scientific knowledge is false, at least in the rare corner case of your unicorn.
The point is that one can claim the existence of all sorts of things that can't, beyond the shadow of a doubt, be proven not to exist.......This doesn't mean that there is any reason to think that things like invisible unicorns exist.

Science isn't about lack of evidence proving non-existence.......Science doesn't rest on the notion that if you can't prove something doesn't exist that it probably exists.


But neither human rights, nor extra-galactic life or civilization, contradicts human experience or scientific knowledge.
It's not that complicated.......When one looks for evidence for the existence of natural rights one finds none. Based on that there is reason to doubt the existence of natural rights.

There is all sorts of philosophical evidence that shows that we get our rights from society by the way.......In order to have the right to property others must cooperate.

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To: TimF who wrote (8870)5/8/2012 7:25:04 AM
From: SocratesJohnson   of 9208
 
Again your conflating reason and evidence,
They can't be separated......Sorry. Rational evidence is completely based on reason and empirical evidence relies heavily on it.

Plato provided well reasoned evidence for rationalism by pointing out the fact that we can imagine two equal things when no such equal things exist.
That is a very different point than the statement in question, where you said "There is no valid reasoning that points to the existence of natural rights."
There isn't any valid reasoning that points to the existence of natural rights.......That's a fact.

There is valid reasoning that shows that rights come from society.

Free markets have produced more,
There has never been a free market.



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To: TimF who wrote (8871)5/8/2012 7:26:46 AM
From: SocratesJohnson   of 9208
 
f that happens frequently" applies to "rights are violated", then you contradict yourself. If the right doesn't exist unless others respect it then it can not be violated.
I don't contradict myself.

Widely acknowledged and well documented rights are, in fact, violated at times.

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To: SocratesJohnson who wrote (8874)5/8/2012 9:33:19 AM
From: Jorj X Mckie1 Recommendation   of 9208
 
does love exist?

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