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To: FUBHO who wrote (44913)7/15/2010 2:03:22 AM
From: Sam   of 55223
 
Industry sources have claimed that Intel and Micron Technology plan to break ground for a new NAND flash fabrication facility in Singapore by the end of 2010, raising concerns that chip prices may come under pressure in 2011 when new facilities at major NAND flash suppliers come online.

lol, like a fab that is begun at the end of 2010 will be producing anything in 2011. And SSDs will be soaking up enormous amounts of NAND in 2012.

And, as you say in your next post, Intel just said in their CC that no decision had been made yet.

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To: FUBHO who wrote (44913)7/15/2010 12:52:04 PM
From: Sam1 Recommendation   of 55223
 
That Digitimes report is absurd, IMO. Intel made the decision but was explicitly non-committal in their CC just the day before? The ML analyst seems to me to have nailed the fab situation pretty well in this report copied from the IV thread.

ML Note on New Fab

New Flash Venture: Expect only minimal impact in 2011-12
Toshiba and SanDisk jointly announced plans for a new fab construction in
Yokkaichi, Japan. This is the third 300mm wafer fab line for the companies under
a new JV entity (50.1/49.9% stake, Toshiba/SanDisk) called New Flash Venture
or Fab 5. That said, it is not a new development as Toshiba has been alluding to a
new shell fab construction since last year, while SanDisk was talking about potential
NAND supply shortage. We have already factored this in to our global NAND supply
model, but still only expect a minimal impact in 2011-12, due to: (1) construction and
initial ramp-up periods (in 2011), and (2) execution risks from using new nodes
(2012). Further, potential budget constraints (Toshiba’s high debt, SanDisk’s
disciplined capex) may delay full utilization of the shell fab even in 2013.

Potential obstacles to the new fab’s full utilization
Toshiba and SanDisk’s second NAND fab is still underutilized – about a half clean
room space is available to add new equipment and tools (incremental capacity:
about 110K wafers per month if US$4bn were spent). Further, Toshiba and
SanDisk need to spend at least US$1.5bn a year to upgrade existing capacities
competitively (Fab 3: 154K wpm; Fab 4: 113K wpm). The third NAND fab will
require about US$9bn to run at a full scale (220K wpm). Net-net, the new fab plan
announced by the companies should be a part of their long-term plans under JV
agreements, and we believe this will not result in a NAND glut, at least in 2011-12.

Samsung’s NAND capex increase won’t be irrationally high
Despite Toshiba camp’s new fab construction, Samsung will not increase its
NAND capex (about US$3.5-4.0bn a year), in our view. Instead, it has recently
addressed new logic fab construction in the US via a NAND shell fab. Samsung’s
currently available clean room space in Korea (line 15) will be used for DRAM.
Thus, the company’s new NAND capacity should come from its underconstruction
shell fab (line 16), which will be operational from late 2Q11.

Enough demand to absorb increase in chip production
Current NAND spot price is much higher than chipmakers’ 3Q projection made six
months ago (16Gb MLC: US$4.5 vs US$3.0-3.5) or our estimate (about US$3.5).
This clearly indicates supply shortage, particularly to meet demand from Apple
and smartphone makers. Although we model about 15% QoQ NAND ASP decline
for the industry in 2H, recent data points (solid demand despite rising macro
concerns, lean inventories in the channels) clearly indicate upside to our 2H
estimates. That said, Toshiba is not our top pick in NAND due to its low-margin
profile for non-NAND products (eg, loss from logic chips and PC). In fact, SanDisk
is our best pick for NAND.

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From: chingadera7/15/2010 2:55:17 PM
   of 55223
 
Isuppli just put out a piece on NAND saying sequential growth for the next five quarters.

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To: chingadera who wrote (44918)7/15/2010 3:03:40 PM
From: slacker711   of 55223
 

They are projecting a NAND market down 6% in the 2nd quarter....but big growth coming over the next few quarters.

isuppli.com 

Slacker

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To: chingadera who wrote (44918)7/15/2010 3:04:20 PM
From: Sam   of 55223
 
And they are also claiming that there was "severe oversupply" of TLC in Q2. What I heard was that Samsung was dumping TLC on the spot market because they were emphasizing MLC instead. In any case, it is usual for Q2 to be somewhat weaker than Q1--that is just seasonal. What isn't seasonal is how relatively strong it has been, not that it has been weak. They (or DJ, depending on who is responsible for the tone of this article) could easily have put a different on what they claim. We'll see in a week how it affected Sandisk. I am still looking for gross margins in the 40s, but we'll see.

NAND Revenue Down 6.5% In 2Q On Price Slump -ISuppli 07/15 02:54 PM

DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

Global revenue from shipments of NAND-type flash-memory chips--used to store data in tablet computers, mobile handsets and other consumer electronics--cooled in the second quarter after a hot start to the year, said research firm iSuppli Corp.
The 6.5% drop from the first quarter, the first decline after five-straight quarters of sequential growth, is expected to be a bump in the road as iSuppli is forecasting another five-quarter streak of gains starting with the third quarter on continued strong demand.

Global NAND revenue is expected to climb 32% this year to a record $17.9 billion.

As for the second quarter, iSuppli blamed the sequential decline to $4.07 billion on a severe oversupply of 3-bit-per-cell, or TLC, flash parts used for removable memory cards and USB drives. That hurt prices and reduced the total revenue for all NAND products, said iSuppli analyst Michael Yang.

Supply and demand for TLC parts are expected to be more balanced in the second half of this year as demand increases for memory cards and USB drives, which have adopted the latest technology. TLC parts allow the storage of three bits of information in each memory cell, tripling the density of a flash device. Other products, including cellphones and tablet devices, use 2-bit-per-cell Multilevel Cell and 1-bit-per-cell Single Level Cell flash.

Meanwhile, MLC NAND is expected to be in short supply the rest of the year because of increased demand for smart phones and tablets, such as Apple Inc.'s (AAPL:$250.616,0$-2.111,0-0.84%) iPhone and iPad.

-By Kathy Shwiff, Dow Jones Newswires; 212-416-2357; Kathy.Shwiff@dowjones.com

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To: slacker711 who wrote (44919)7/15/2010 3:15:02 PM
From: Sam   of 55223
 
Here is the abstract to a longer report on NAND that iSuppli is selling:
isuppli.com 

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To: slacker711 who wrote (44919)7/15/2010 8:43:40 PM
From: Pam2 Recommendations   of 55223
 



One important thing to consider here is that as TLC prices have come down significantly for the entire 2Q, it will impact Sandisk's margins significantly going forward. If you notice, up until 1Q10 Sandisk could have sold TLC based products at prices comparable to MLC based products without a consumer knowing about it. But now, if Samsung is selling its TLC parts at much lower prices to Tier-2, Tier-3 players, they can price their products much lower and Sandisk will also have to lower the prices of its products and this will eat into Sandisk's fat margins! This may or maynot happen this quarter but eventually it will, as other vendors catch-up on TLC.

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To: Pam who wrote (44922)7/15/2010 9:22:24 PM
From: Sam2 Recommendations   of 55223
 
Back on June 1, Sterne, Agee came out with this note on Samsung and TLC:

07:27 SNDK SanDisk: Samsung cutting back 3-bit output, AAPL MLC demand picking up, positive for SNDK - Sterne Agee (42.07 )

Sterne Agee's checks in the NAND supply indicate NAND Supply continues to be constrained and inventory at normal levels. Firm believes Samsung is potentially cutting back on its 3-bit NAND output for 3Q10 as it caters to strong AAPL high density MLC demand. AAPL demand for 16-32Gb MLC picking up substantially as those are the key NAND components for the ramping builds on iPhone4 and iPad. Firm believes the mix shift at Samsung back to MLC plays well for Sandisk, as SNDK is the key player at 3-bit per cell.
Message 26655724

No one else produces it, as far as I know. Also, your comments in the post I am replying to seem to contradict somewhat your comments in this post:
Message 26486384

TLC should be cheaper than MLC. Sure it would be "better" for Sandisk margins if they were the same price, but I presume that, as they have gained more production experience with it, their costs have gone down as well. FWIW, I was in Staples today, and noted that they were well stocked with flash drives, especially HPQ, PNY and Sandisk brands. Sandisk was the high price in every instance I looked at (and they were all more expensive than online prices I have seen). I'm not sure if that has any meaning, as I really don't know why someone would buy flash drives at a Staples store, I just note it. It wouldn't surprise me if Sandisk flash was in each one of those drives.

All that said--it is good to hear from you, Pam, I hope you have time to give us the benefit of your thoughts over the next few weeks!

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To: Pam who wrote (44922)7/15/2010 10:17:06 PM
From: slacker711   of 55223
 
If you notice, up until 1Q10 Sandisk could have sold TLC based products at prices comparable to MLC based products without a consumer knowing about it.

They could have said this about the 1st quarter, but when giving guidance for the 2nd quarter, they would have already needed to take into account the pricing gap. The gap has actually been stable over the last three months.

FWIW though, I have never been a huge believer that x3 was going to be magic bullet for Sandisk. There is at least some performance gap and there is a lag before x3 is manufactured on the latest nodes. That removes much of the theoretical margin advantage.

Slacker

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To: slacker711 who wrote (44924)7/15/2010 10:53:59 PM
From: Sam   of 55223
 
There is at least some performance gap and there is a lag before x3 is manufactured on the latest nodes. That removes much of the theoretical margin advantage.

We'll see what their margins are this quarter. Right now, there is very little MLC being produced at 2x, and there won't be very much until Q4, according to MU in its CC.

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