Technology Stocks | SanDisk Corporation (SNDK)


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To: ELH1006 who wrote (40830)10/20/2008 8:53:27 PM
From: sylvester80   of 54973
 
Wish someone could tell me how you go about calculating cash flow (positive or negative) from the balance sheet numbers. Anyone want to give it a try?

Here are the B/S numbers:
Message 25088208

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To: sylvester80 who wrote (40831)10/20/2008 10:28:10 PM
From: inaflash   of 54973
 
This is just a (wild) guess, but $31,529 looks like a good number (it's positive) from:

Preliminary Condensed Consolidated Statement of Cash Flows (in thousands, unaudited)
Net increase (decrease) in cash and cash equivalents

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To: inaflash who wrote (40811)10/20/2008 11:44:44 PM
From: etchmeister   of 54973
 
<iWhat's being overlooked is that Toshiba is proving $1B cash for the 30%, which means they're valuing the partnerships at over $3B, which is more than half the Samsung offer. Some have estimated the expected Samsung IP royalty stream alone to be more than what Samsung was offering to pay. And there are other valuable operations to the Sandisk business.

So is SNDK following Rambus pah?
of course in a different way and far more profitable
but selling of its manufacturing capabilities (which Rambus never owned) represents a fundamental change - is that's the way we go?

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To: etchmeister who wrote (40833)10/21/2008 12:14:36 AM
From: inaflash1 Recommendation   of 54973
 
So is SNDK following Rambus pah?
of course in a different way and far more profitable
but selling of its manufacturing capabilities (which Rambus never owned) represents a fundamental change - is that's the way we go?


The thought crossed my mind, but I opted not to mention it because I didn't think it was very similar at all. Sandisk is in a far stronger IP position than Rambus ever was. Also, going fabless isn't good for Sandisk long run either, but Sandisk achieves most synergy involved in more aspects of the business. I'm taking a look at Qualcomm for a better comparision of what model Sandisk could be following.

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From: Bruno Cipolla10/21/2008 12:32:21 PM
1 Recommendation   of 54973
 
Sandisk in the dust?

;-)


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To: inaflash who wrote (40834)10/21/2008 12:33:39 PM
From: Art Bechhoefer   of 54973
 
going fabless isn't good for Sandisk long run either

That's not what SanDisk aims for, if you heard the cc or saw a transcript. They are trying to achieve a balance between captive and non-captive production such that captive production is used close to 100% of capacity. In the current situation, their model, which involved buying some chips from Samsung, went to pieces because they couldn't even sell all of their own production, much less that which they purchased.

It's one thing to own your own production facilities for what some call a commodity business. You might become the lowest cost producer if you control your own production. But as Qualcomm has shown, when you own critical patents, you need not make your own chips but can rely on outside fabs to do the job. This turns out to be a better use of capital, especially when you are raking in royalties from outside producers that need your IP.

It's not clear at all to me that SNDK was wrong to invest so much in its own manufacturing capacity. The problem we have been seeing for the last year at least has more to do with excess capacity fueled by the desire of the major competitors, especially Samsung, to gain an overpowering market share by continually forcing down prices in order to force the weakest players out of the market entirely.

I think there's something wrong when companies are allowed to sell products below cost in order to drive out weaker competitors, and such practices should be prevented by administrative or legal action.

On the other hand, I also think that SanDisk, rather than pursue a policy of enhancing its position in consumer markets, should have devoted more energy toward creating applications for NAND flash that are less dependent on consumer well being and more dependent on necessities. An example would be the use of NAND chips to store medical information, carried by the patient, and capable of being displayed or read only with the patient's permission. SanDisk many years ago made a small effort to provide such a system for the military, but it went nowhere. One of the key problems today is that there are almost no applications that can be deemed essential while at the same time being ideally suitable for NAND flash alone. With applications that could constitute a basic application, irrespective of economic conditions, SanDisk and other suppliers would be less prone to the plummeting prices that make at least certain types of NAND flash unprofitable for all manufacturers.

Art

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To: Art Bechhoefer who wrote (40836)10/21/2008 1:11:21 PM
From: inaflash   of 54973
 
going fabless isn't good for Sandisk long run either

That's not what SanDisk aims for


I didn't say that's their plan or where they should be heading, and if you look at the rest of the posting, I'm advocating remaining involved at the foundry level. The poor comparison was with Rambus and I was trying to get away from that. Though I don't know much about Qualcomm, their "fabless" seems to have similarity with what Sandisk aims to do, mainly work closely with foundry partners and have significant guaranteed capacity. Another point on the spectrum is TIs fablite approach.

In any case, Sandisk recent move isn't going fabless, but it is less fab. The move may just be temporary, but that can mean several quarters to several years. In the worst case senarios (very unlikely in my view), selling off more assets (fabs, IP, resellers, etc.) would certainly be on the table.

eetimes.eu 

BTW, predatory pricing is extremely difficult to prove, and recently the currency exchange picture alters a lot of assumptions, including who's the low-cost producer now. Weak currency produces a short term pricing benefit, but long term, expenditures and investment costs will balance things.

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To: inaflash who wrote (40837)10/21/2008 1:57:36 PM
From: Art Bechhoefer   of 54973
 
predatory pricing is extremely difficult to prove

Yes, I agree, but it is worth considering since it's quite clear that 200mm wafers are no longer cost effective. There is a question about whether SLC chips made by Samsung are profitable, and even if we assume they are, we cannot assume that MLC chips, which involve royalties to SNDK, are equally profitable, or at all profitable.

I also agree that courts generally look favorably on prices that benefit consumers. But the pricing policies we have seen on the part of Samsung, when combined with other decisions, such as buying all of SNDK at fire sale prices, point to an INTENT to provide irreparable harm by lowering prices below their own cost. That kind of behavior is not permissible.

I think that the Qualcomm model, which is entirely fabless (QCOM is the world's largest fabless semiconductor company), has been more successful. It is made possible through carefully crafted licensing and royalty agreements covering patents essential for modern day wireless communication.

SanDisk doesn't have quite as many essential patents, but when you include the mSystems portfolio, it has more than enough to get the job done. As shown in the latest financial statement, L&R was the only bright part of the picture.

Art

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To: Art Bechhoefer who wrote (40838)10/21/2008 3:17:42 PM
From: inaflash   of 54973
 
...it's quite clear that 200mm wafers are no longer cost effective.

It's generally agreed that 300mm is more cost effective than 200mm, but it's not completely clear that 200mm cannot produce "profitable" products. There was always the depreciated equipment, SLC price differential, and now won depreciation to create a lot of wiggle room and accounting differences. Further, Samsung isn't the only producer to sell at a loss, and it could be argued they're only responding to pricing pressures in a competitive environment. If Samsung isn't selling at a loss, aren't those producers who are the ones that are dumping? In any case, the weak won throws another monkey wrench in this whole mess.

There's the additional problem of defining what products need to be aggregated over what time periods to determine predator behavior. Supermarkets routinely run loss leaders, but aren't being target for predatory pricing. Is Samsung allowed the same flexibility or does each product have to be profitable all the time? Can/should SLC and MLC products be treated separately or together? To what granularity does this pricing accusation need to go? And to what degree does idle capacity cost need to be added to the marginal produciton cost? Is a product that's marginally profitable, but no longer profitable once certain fixed costs are added in a candidate for predatory pricing? I completely agree that there are suggestions of inappropriate behaviors, but making the case is not easy at all.

I think that the Qualcomm model, which is entirely fabless (QCOM is the world's largest fabless semiconductor company), has been more successful. It is made possible through carefully crafted licensing and royalty agreements covering patents essential for modern day wireless communication.

That's why I'm looking at Qualcomm as a better comparison than Rambus. I'm not familiar with Qualcomm production agreements or durations, but I'll bet some are quite large and long. Being fabless doesn't mean they don't control significant fab production capacity (and take on significant obligations).

Fablite/assetlite are moves to less fabs, while partnership in ownership or long term commitments/guarantees on fab capacity are moves towards more fabs. Any multi-year agreements (say those lasting 5 years or more) could be treated more like ownership than rental in my view. There's a whole spectrum of arrangements that can be made today to tailor the needs of the participants with lots of flexibility, cost/benefit and risk/benefit sharing which Sandisk/Toshiba are making good use.

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From: Pam10/21/2008 9:16:33 PM
   of 54973
 
Samsung Withdraws SanDisk Bid
By EVAN RAMSTAD

SEOUL -- Samsung Electronics Co. early Wednesday withdrew its $5.8 billion offer to acquire SanDisk Corp., saying it no longer believed SanDisk was worth the money it was offering and that SanDisk's refusal to entertain friendly discussions stymied hopes for a deal.

Samsung in mid-September sent a letter offering to buy SanDisk for $26 a share. SanDisk rejected the offer, saying Samsung was taking advantage of a market downturn to buy it on the cheap.

Since then, global stock markets have continued to come under pressure. And SanDisk on Monday reported a wider-than-expected loss for the third quarter. Investors increasingly came to believe a deal wouldn't get done. SanDisk shares closed at $15.04, up 28 cents or 1.9%, in Nasdaq trading on Tuesday.

In a letter to SanDisk's top executives, Samsung Chief Executive Officer Lee Yoon-woo said SanDisk's third-quarter loss and the subsequent restructuring of its chipmaking deal with Toshiba Corp. "point to a considerable increase in your risk profile and a material deterioration in value."

"As a result of these developments, we are no longer interested in acquiring SanDisk at $26 a share," the letter from Samsung said.

With SanDisk, Samsung would have picked up a major user of the flash memory chips used in digital storage cards, music players and cameras. Samsung is the world's largest maker of flash memory chips and a supplier to SanDisk. But Samsung also pays several hundred million dollars in annual royalties to SanDisk for patents it holds on flash-memory technology.

The deal was the largest Samsung has ever attempted and would have been the largest foreign acquisition by a South Korea-based company.

Write to Evan Ramstad at evan.ramstad@wsj.com

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