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To: Stormweaver who wrote (17872)7/14/1999 6:35:00 PM
From: Charles Tutt   of 64860
 
Didn't they teach you anything at McMaster, Jimmy? Sun is the one providing open solutions, not Microsoft. Open means you aren't forced to conform to whatever one vendor (like Microsoft or Intel) chooses to set as the "standard," and that such things as interfaces and protocols are visible and available to all rather than hidden or protected. Also, there are often independent/multi-vendor/collaborative standards or steering bodies influencing the direction taken by "open" technology; the closest thing Microsoft has is a focus group. The "proprietary iron" is the Wintel stuff. Microsoft has sole control of what it puts into Windows, and Intel has sole control of what it puts into its products. Each has exercised that control for its own benefit rather than for the benefit of its customers, whenever those interests have clashed.

JMHO.

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To: JDN who wrote (17862)7/14/1999 8:00:00 PM
From: Mephisto   of 64860
 
OFF TOPIC, JDN, I think EMC finally breaks out!!! Opinion?

Cheers,

Mephisto

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To: Charles Tutt who wrote (17874)7/14/1999 8:35:00 PM
From: chunmun   of 64860
 
James, u from mcmaster compsci, so am I, what year did you
graduate, guess u know lauer and skip?

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To: E_K_S who wrote (17839)7/14/1999 9:49:00 PM
From: E_K_S   of 64860
 
Anybody know the status of the Sun SOLARIS OS port to the Merced 64-bit chip....Are we on track? I would like to see how Solaris 7.0 performs with this new (next generation) processor and how it compares to the current SPARC chip performance.

The boxmakers may now be motivated to per-load Solaris as the server OS of choice if Sun shows the market the performance characteristics w/ Merced vs the other Unix or MS options.

EKS

==========================
Intel: Merced's Processor Design Is Complete
(07/14/99, 8:23 p.m. ET)
By Alexander Wolfe, EE Times

Intel has completed a major milestone on the long road to its 64-bit Merced microprocessor. ..."...the processor design is complete," an Intel spokeswoman said.

techweb.com 

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To: Charles Tutt who wrote (17874)7/14/1999 11:31:00 PM
From: Stormweaver   of 64860
 
The term "open systems" used to mean something and used to be a +ve for UNIX but now that the key standards and interfaces are supported under NT it doesn't matter; NT is open. In fact you can now get the entire SVR4 interface under NT ; ie. AT&T Research, David Korn's UWIN project.

Buying Sun iron means I'm locked into Sun and a half-dozen or so 3rd party hardware providers. Chances are that means I'll be paying more for my hardware (less competition). If I choose X86 I'm buying into a larger market with thousands of 3rd party providers that are constantly competing providing rapid product evolution and a competitive price. The other benefit is I can now select the operating system that best runs my application(s) NT, SCO, Linux, QNX, BeOS, ... I'm not locked into one vendor.

More on open systems...
Also the "Open Systems" standards such as POSIX and the SVR4 are quite archaic once you look at the Win32 system API's; they were conceived back in the 70's. For the techies an example of the boneheaded SVR4 API called "select()" forces the application developer to wait for i/o, then loop through all descriptors to see if something happened. In Win32 you register and handler and it's done or perform a WaitMultipleObjects()... I could start talking about how screwed up signals (signal() and friends) are under UNIX ... especially if you use threads. Try seeing how OPEN UNIX is when you try to port a threaded application between AIX,HP-UX,DEC or Solaris; believe me I've done it more than once ! Solaris has the two-level model, AIX has the one level model blah blah blah, and by the time your done fixing timing and sync issues you could have re-written the entire thing.

...starting to rant

Any UNIX vendor claiming "Open Systems" as a marketing point now is scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

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To: Nolan Toone who wrote (17873)7/14/1999 11:47:00 PM
From: Stormweaver   of 64860
 
You're right. *IFF* I can find all the things I need in open iron
($3000) AND open software ($100000+time & effort) I might save
~$200 (.02%). But those are mighty big ifs.


Find all the things you need ? - please explain ? Whatever you can buy for proprietary iron you can find a cheaper or at least a same price component/software for open iron. If not name a couple that are only available on proprietary iron ... ?

The other big bonus is in the cost; system cost is cheaper and add-on components are cheaper and more readily available.


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To: The Ox who wrote (17854)7/15/1999 12:02:00 AM
From: Stormweaver   of 64860
 
I see innovation in many areas...

Let me first say that I think Java is a great language but we can't ignore that Sun has stumbled with it and the thin client idea:

1. Java & Java add-ons (ie. Jini , JFC)
- great language but Sun has failed to make it fully commercially acceptable.
- 3 years and still buggy

2. Thin Client
- 3 years of talk and no commercially viable product

I think Java still has a good chance but I'm concerned about Sun being the controller of it. Based on long SUNW's on this thread idea #2 must work ... it's Sun's desktop strategy.

Regarding AMD they've got the performance lead now on INTC with K7 Athlon. Average chip prices have increased and I think they will do very well if they can keep production quotas.

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To: chunmun who wrote (17876)7/15/1999 12:22:00 AM
From: Stormweaver   of 64860
 
1991 and yes I remember them. Best memories though are of the "Downstairs John" ;)

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To: Stormweaver who wrote (17878)7/15/1999 2:04:00 AM
From: Charles Tutt   of 64860
 
I think you've overstated things a bit, but I can't deny that the diversity of vendors in the X86 domain is a benefit; that's part of the reason the newer Sun machines have PCI slots. Nor can I claim that Sun is perfect (nor is Unix, although "archaic" is a loaded word; don't forget that much of what is in Windows got there by way of DOS, and is no joy to work with, either).

But remember how we got to this point in the discussion. You claim Sun is "proprietary iron," and I claim that Wintel is where the "proprietary" adjective applies. Note that there are a handful of OS's that run on Sun "iron," and that there are plenty of porting issues even among the various flavors of Windows (or even between versions of, e.g., NT).

But I will credit you with a well-crafted argument just this once. ;)

JMHO.

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To: Stormweaver who wrote (17880)7/15/1999 2:18:00 AM
From: Charles Tutt   of 64860
 
Three years seems like a long time in Internet time, but it's actually a pretty short time for implementing something with the scope of Java or a shift to thin client computing. Compare with the length of the development cycle for relatively minor incremental changes in Microsoft products (e.g. Win95 --> Win98 is coincidentally about 3 years).

FWIW (and OT), I seriously wonder whether AMD will still exist in 3 years; losing big $$$ and key people must be demoralizing. Contrast their execution with that by TXN, ADI, LSI, and INTC, all of whom also deal with extremely complex semiconductor products.

JMHO.

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